Mat Lock
Hi Luke, great to have you on the podcast. i It's good morning from this end. But I know it's good afternoon where you are so good to have you here. And maybe you could just share a little bit about yourself where you are in the world and what it is that you're about.
Luke Chao
Well, thank you for having me, Matt. I'm in Toronto, Canada, it it is nearing evening here. Actually, we're just winding up a day. And I appreciate the invitation.
Mat Lock
Now very good, man. I know, people will have already heard that you're into hypnosis, you're actually all about making hypnosis make sense. Which, which I love. And whilst we're not going to spend too long, actually talking about how hypnotherapy works, it would be good just to have a feel for for those for anyone who's not familiar with it? Or maybe I've only seen there's a stage craft on television. What's hypnosis really about? And in what applications? Do you tend to use it?
Luke Chao
Well, or summarize my answer to the best of my ability, because this is a topic where if you got me started, I could talk for the next five hours. So I'll summarize it like this. People have the ability to open their minds on purpose. So when you're listening to a storyteller, for example, or if you're listening to a lecture or you really respect, you might put aside your usual critical analytical thinking to listen wholeheartedly to what the speaker is saying. On top of that, a speaker is able to speak in ways that kind of resonate more deeply with a person's emotions or they're able to speak in a way that's more influential, that's more persuasive. So when you kind of put these two things together, hypnosis is fundamentally the hypnotists use of words or verbal suggestions to affect the client in the ways that the client has agreed to, that the hypnosis part is what we call an inwardly focused, deeply relaxed state of mind. There is no magic to it, there is no mysticism to Mr. Mysticism to it. It's fundamentally a state where the clients turn inwardly they're relaxed. It's kind of like meditation, except with the guidance and the influence of the hypnotist at the same time. And typically, anything in the realm of what benefits from a change in attitude or a change in perspective, such as any kind of fear or anxiety. Many bad habits, like smoking or overeating is something that in most cases, hypnotherapy can help with. It depends a lot on how suggestible the person is where the more suggestible the person is, the easier it is. There'll be able to turn inwardly and accept new ideas. But fundamentally, it is that and anything outside the realm of what can be affected by adoption of a new attitude or perspective probably can't be helped through hypnosis.
Mat Lock
Yeah, sure. No, thank you. Yeah. And it would probably be fascinating to talk about it five hours with you. But no, I appreciate that. And certainly, hypnotherapy is something that I've had experience with albeit a long time ago. Back in the day, my my father was a dental surgeon for about 3 million years. And back then, when he qualified, hypnotherapy was actually part of his dental training. And sadly, it's not now and I say it that way. Because I've seen over the years, how he's used that hypnotherapy, to great effect with only with a hand near and full of patients, and some personal friends and family, he never charged for the service, it was something he would roll out at the right time with the right person for the right reason. So it was never financially incentivized, let's say and I've seen and felt the benefit of it. And I know that he felt quite frustrated when you'd see the onstage hypnotists you know, using it for entertainment and, and getting people to do all sorts of crazy things for the purposes of entertainment. And he felt that that really did undermine the power of the therapy and so many people who could be benefited by it, but but now have this perception of what it is. And Oreo. It's not for me, and I don't want to be made to do crazy things that I don't want to You're nodding your head. I mean, I'm guessing you're agreeing with his approach or his thoughts around that.
Luke Chao
Absolutely. It does seem to be that in the 1950s in the 1960s. I can actually name one of the major trainers of dentists and doctors at the time, Dave Elman. He popularized the medical and dental use of hypnotherapy. And he went around the world to training usually in the English speaking world training that dentists and doctors in how to use hypnosis, which I often describe as advanced bedside manner when I'm talking to medical professionals, because essentially, you know, you're using words to reassure the client that everything's going to be fine. And they're going to feel alright. And I'm going to summarize stage hypnosis as getting people to accept bizarre ideas temporarily. And I'm going to summarize my work as getting people to accept completely normal and very helpful ideas for the rest of their lives, which overlaps much more with what your dad used to do. And that makes the the work that a hypnotherapist does quite different from what a stage hypnotist does, because they're, they're different challenges. On stage showmanship matters a lot on stage, you have to be selective about the people you keep on stage. In my office, I have to, or at least I want to work with as many people as possible. In, in here, people are looking not just to kind of take on an idea while they're in the chair. They want to also have the idea in a week, in a month in a year. But no one leaves a stage show feeling like they're a dog a month or a year later.
Mat Lock
Absolutely not. I can again, I will. It's interesting that you talk about, you know, what you're doing is getting people to upset except perfectly normal ideas for the rest of their lives. And my personal examples, and we didn't talk about this previously, was literally 25 years ago, ish, I developed a fear of flight of travel of flying in particular. And I couldn't explain it, there was no reason that I was aware, I couldn't explain and therefore made it even more frustrating. And it took basically 210 minute sessions with my dad and I went into this, the first session was a bit of a nonbeliever bit of a skeptic. And I've never felt such a sense of relaxation, as I did in those two sessions to 10 more, maybe there were 20 minutes. And when I lost track time, perhaps but they weren't long. It's my point. And there's only two of them. And he gave me a little technique to use, which I can use to this day, if I'm feeling anxious, and it works. But interestingly, even now, if I, let's say overcame that, that fear of air travel 25 years ago with his help. And since then I've done a lot of air travel, certainly the two decades of sort of senior corporate roles, traveling really globally for six months of each year. And wouldn't even think like for me getting on planes like getting in a taxi, I wouldn't even think about it yet, on every single flight. Once I'm strapped into my seat, and we push back from the, from the hub from the terminal. The next thing I know is I wake up as the thing, the seatbelt sign, light goes out. So we've reached our cruising altitude. And that's when I, I kind of wake up and feel great, because that's what he put in there all those years ago. But it's interesting how it's so powerful, that I'm not even thinking about it. I'm not conscious of that it just happened and it's wonderful.
Luke Chao
Your dad sounds like a really, really good hypnotist, for him to have done a couple of sessions 25 years ago, to still have that effect on you that that's what I'm talking about. When I talk about accepting ideas like that the normal idea that you accepted is that you are safe, you're so safe, you can zone out and breathe normally and feel comfortable. And you accepted that belief that idea 100% It sounds like and 25 years in counting, you've kept that belief inside your head. So that that's exactly what I'm talking about when I say accepting completely normal ideas. Yeah, for the rest.
Mat Lock
Absolutely. Now, I know that one of the other than a shared passion for matters of the mind. We also have a similar audience in terms of people in leadership roles or business owners, and basically those who are looking to perhaps unlock more of their own potential. And I loved it. So you know, what you're doing is not only helping people overcome problems, let's say like claustrophobia, or whatever it may be. You mentioned sort of the question that it acts as the umbrella for what it is. We'll talk about today certainly is but and that is what do leaders need to hear? Because it'll help them and they don't necessarily hear from anyone else. And I think that's really pertinent. And I know that when we had our pre chat a few weeks ago, he talked about how you frame work and you framed it as work is a game that's played for money and that really resonated with me and I think it will with our audience and I'd love if you could just dig into that. What do you want to mean by that? And how's that helpful to think of it
Luke Chao
that way? Yes, well, you have to keep in mind, I am speaking to leaders, I am speaking to people who go the extra mile, who do extra work, who are more ambitious than normal, where they don't have to sacrifice as much earlier in their careers, they don't have to have put in all the extra hours, they don't have to have pursued extra training earlier in their career. But they did. So we're not talking to just literally everybody, we're talking about people who climbed the corporate ladder and actually make it all the way up to the top or near the top. So the set of messages I have to give to someone like that is going to be different from the set of messages I'll give to say someone whose careers capped at mid management. So one of those ideas that you alluded to is that work at this point in your career, is kind of a game you play for money, where many senior leaders actually have the financial capacity to retire. But they keep working because they get pleasure out of it, because they want to make a difference, because they believe they can do a particular role better than that other people in the world. So that there are incentives other than money, that drive many leaders to to exceed and Excel. Where I think a lot of people get overly stressed is, if they feel like they must make the next million. If they feel like their buddy who's making half a million a year while they're only making 400,000, a year is doing much better than them, then they are causing unnecessary stress within themselves. And the people who come to me, often they present with a smoking habit or an overheating habit, or, you know, they'll drink a bottle of wine every night to cope with workplace stress. And they don't start by telling me that they're overworked, or that their identity is too tied up with their work, they'll tell me that they drink too much, they'll tell me that they smoke cigarettes and they want to stop. So what I'm speaking about is something that even a lot of people don't recognize in themselves, that that, at the same time, they do exceptionally well in the corporate world. They are neglecting all the rest of their own humanity. And one thing I have to tell them is that once upon a time, you weren't in a senior role. Once upon a time, you didn't even have a job. Once upon a time, you couldn't even walk on your own two feet. And back then you did however, love play, and you love family and you loved music, and you love nature, and maybe you loved animals back then. And one day, you're also going to be retired. So you know where all of this is leading to and in most people's lives, is a second childhood where you can play and be with family and make music or listen to music, and do all of that. But so so that that the message then is that even during your working years, even during the most productive years of your life, your 20s 30s 40s 50s 60s
to have a sense of play is beneficial and appropriate. It also allows one being less stressed to kind of think on a more visionary level. If you just care about like the details of the small picture and the small stuff, you can't lead as effectively, a leader must look at the biggest picture and the longest timeline. A leader also must have the emotional comfort to sometimes be bold to sometimes take risk or just speak up or to say what's unpopular. If you are to do all of this, you have to take care of yourself. And one other thing I have to say to all my leader clients is that you aren't just a mind. You also have a heart with feelings and values and hopes and goals and dreams and a vision for how the world ought to be. And you also have a physical body with trillions of cells and each one's alive and your physical body so just to kind of tie it in with some of the presenting complaints. You know, your party's just as poisoned by excessive alcohol or tobacco as anyone elses and you can't treat yourself like a machine, you can't treat yourself like like an object. I know, often in the modern schooling system and the modern corporate world, people are encouraged to kind of see themselves as cogs in a machine, unfortunately. And that's why I have to give people the message, that you're not a machine. That's not your place. It's not to be among objects or things that only have value insofar as they can function. You're actually among living beings, you're among the animals of the forest, and your pet, cat and dog and your friends in the neighborhood children and you know, it all living beings that have intrinsic worth, that deserve happiness and peace, and that are not machines, but that have the right to rest that have the right to play that have the right to have the right to pursue leisure. So if you see, so, by the time someone's reached the very top, they kind of have the luxury of seeing work as a game that you play for money. You know, to be honest, if the money weren't there, I think a lot of people wouldn't be doing the work they do even at the highest levels. But to kind of forget that it's a game or to lose the element of play. Or to to forget that you wouldn't do it, if it weren't for the money would cause unnecessary stress and unnecessary suffering. I think if one is to kind of be grounded and realistic about their work, they should remember, it's kind of a game that you play for money. But again, I say to my leaders, I don't say to everyone,
Mat Lock
and thank you, I have to say all of that made a lot of sense. And certainly I love that the presenting the reasons for them presenting, for example, you know, they're they're said, they're almost like first order symptoms, aren't they, but it's actually the second order consequences, which are where you're heading, and are sort of much more deeper, more impactful nature. I wonder why it is that it's not necessarily the case in every example. But one must assume that for those who have really reached senior leadership positions, you know, top or near the top of larger organizations, there's a certain level of intelligence involved, I would assume. And therefore, I wonder why it is that, that that point is missed by so many, you know, when they are, as you as you say, either drinking or smoking or eating too much any of those things? And is a first order symptoms. Why they're not able to make that assessment themselves? Or, or handle that themselves, maybe even have the self awareness around that. It maybe that is missing, but I wonder why for people who are so so in touch with themselves in so many ways, and certainly in a leadership role, and a successful in business. Love to hear Granted,
Luke Chao
most of these habits started far earlier in life, then when they took a leadership position. So a smoking habit of drinking habit often starts in the teens, or maybe the early 20s at the latest. So it definitely goes way back since before they had so much responsibility or understanding of how to cope with the world or understanding of how to cope with relationships and their own emotions. So that's one answer. One other answer is that when I work with clients, I often hear that they had never thought about it. So the situation in that way before so in the way that I describe. People kind of know to seek media coaching, if they're going to be interviewed on national television, people kind of know that they'll hire a golf pro, if they want to improve their golf swing. But often people try to quit smoking or lose weight on their own. As a hypnotherapist I kind of occupy a very unique niche in the overall wellness mental health coaching sphere, in that the work I do is to give people very clear and very directive guidance about what to think. And part of the reason that typically people can hear me talk for a couple of hours, and then be done with tobacco is because they're intelligent enough and they're capable enough and their lives are together enough that with a couple of hours of guidance, they get it and they don't have to hear any kind of reinforcement or repetition after that. It just is until they sit themselves down into a chair like mine to hear or listen very carefully for an hour or two. They just Don't have any direction as to how a non smoker deals with stress or how someone spends an evening without opening a beer or without opening a bottle of wine. Once they get that direction, it's my high achieving clients that pick on pick up on it very quickly.
Mat Lock
Yeah, that makes sense. Absolutely. Now I'm conscious. And maybe it's my, maybe my fault that we've focused, I guess on the, the addiction side, or they're drinking too much they're eating and so on. And that's not it alone is when people come to you because they're looking for they're looking to improve their performance, they're looking to unlock their potential.
Luke Chao
Yes, well, here's a corollary to the idea that work is a game you play for money. I'm one belief, I seem to have to communicate over and over again, to just multiple people being located in downtown Toronto, I'm surrounded by universities and financial buildings and government buildings on on, on that side. So my typical client, I would say, is high achieving, more educated than average, more affluent than average. So what I find myself having to say, to almost all of them, is that because you are a human being, and because, you know, you're among all life on planet Earth, rather, rather than, you know, machines, or robots and objects, you have fundamental worth, you have a dignity that's intrinsic and inviolable. And that means your worth or dignity doesn't depend on your occupation, it doesn't depend on your income, it doesn't depend on whether you're in the good graces of the board. It doesn't depend on the stock price, it doesn't depend on any extrinsic factor, if you can recognize that, you know, your neighbor who's first and you know, and you know, nothing about if you can recognize, they have worth, they have dignity, you treat them as a human being, then, you know, for you to treat yourself, like a thing that only has worked insofar as it can perform functions, is completely unfair to you. It is a double standard, it is an unnecessary double standard. So I and I think that people often rise to the top, because unfortunately, this objectifying mentality that a person has worth only insofar as they can produce or function that kind of is encouraged, and that's kind of reward. Right. So, you know, there are performance incentives and KPIs and all sorts of metrics by modern share prices. So that's where this idea that work is a game you play for money is especially important. Because if you buy too much into the idea that the share price actually reflects upon your worth as a person. Right? Then you're causing unnecessary stress. You're also buying into a worldview that any child can tell you is absolutely incorrect, that you're, you know, if your own dog or cat could speak that they would disagree with your spouse, your family, your closest buddies, your closest friends, would completely disagree with this notion that your worth depends upon the share price. So,
Mat Lock
yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, one of the, I can imagine one of the reasons your clientele come to you. And it's a pretty lonely role, right. And once you get towards the top of the hierarchy, or to chart the org chart, it's pretty lonely. I remember the first GM role that I was put into in a multinational environment. And I was told at the time, just be aware, this is one of the loneliest roles in the business. And that was true. So, I mean, how do you help your clients with? With that? I mean, in terms of everyone, ultimately, most, most of the organizations are looking at expecting you to have all the answers. Yet when you look up, where do you go for support? I mean, obviously, they're professionals like yourself that they can see, but how else would you? How would you help your clients with that?
Luke Chao
Well, there are several answers that come to mind. I might make reference to professional athletes who are often singularly on the field, and they can't wait for their fans to cheer before they feel capable. They can't run to the coach whenever they have a doubt and ask for validation. inside their heads, they have to be their own best source of encouragement and validation and support. So that that's one of my answers because There's very few people or nobody above you, you can look to for validation. And also, because a leader at that, at that point in his or her career, is knowledgeable enough, is capable enough and has good enough judgment, to be their own best source of encouragement and positive validation. Looking inwardly, is, I would say, the most dependable place to turn in order to find a kind word. And at first, sometimes people feel like it's kind of silly to sit and say to yourself, I did a good job today, or I deserve this vacation. Or you don't have to care what that one person said that their opinion is no well informed. So sometimes people kind of feel silly talking to themselves like that in ways they would actually talk to colleagues. But the same kinds of things that would uplift and encourage and hearten a colleague, or the same kinds of words that would encourage and harden oneself, it just is, very often we have double standards where we give our warmth and our support to other people and somehow consider ourselves to be an exception to the rule. Much of what I say, Yeah, please.
Mat Lock
So I wonder why we do that. And then actually, we use the word validation several times. And I have to say the question in my own head words, or validation, why does that sound needy to me, sounds like I'd be being needy if I need validation for something which intelligent, logical part of our brains for that ridiculous, but the emotional side was kind of J boys, but I was being triggered that that felt needy,
Luke Chao
here's why I think it is. So children, a her, frankly, much more needy than adults are, and among all their needs, is to have validation that they are doing the right thing, that they are on the right path in life, that their work is good enough that their finger painting is beautiful enough. So children, you know, kind of look to the adults above them. And then as we transition into being young adults, you know, we have a little bit more judgment, we have a little bit more knowledge of ourselves and the world and, you know, what we should do in the world or how we should conduct ourselves. And then, by the time that someone reaches a senior leadership role, they do have very good judgment, they have a proven track record, they are, I might use this term, fully and legitimately a real adult. So I think the reason that you kind of, maybe internally cringe, or you feel that that kind of internal resistance is that you don't want to see yourself as being like a junior employee, you don't want to see yourself as being like a child, when in fact, you've reached that the top of your game. And well, just to kind of tie it back in with the idea of self validation. Um, self validation is different from turning to other people for validation. People lower in the org chart, or people who are just students, they do have to turn to people who are more experienced or knowledgeable for validation and guidance and encouragement. But one of the things they don't tell you when you become a leader is once you reach the top, you must become self validating. And I'll address this often people, you know, have have some resistance against the idea of being self congratulatory, or they think that being self validating is going to turn them into a solipsistic narcissistic jerk. And it doesn't just like when you're kind and supportive towards your friends and family, it doesn't turn them into a jerk. It actually makes them happier people. Being kind towards yourself, upholding the same standard in the privacy of your own head and heart that you do for other people around you, is not going to turn you into a jerk. It's actually upholding one singular universal standard. And, you know, often I think the problems people have are based on the fact that they to remember when they were Junior they do remember when they knew less. They do remember when they were a child in grade eight when they said that thing and everyone laughed. But here's another message I have to give to my My adult clients, it's that other people judge you as the person you are today. So anytime you're thinking back to who you were 20 years ago, or 30 years ago, or even longer ago that that version of you is now obsolete out of date, and no one in your workplace really cares how badly you did 30 years ago, they just literally don't care. So if you also don't care, you're choosing all those people around you, who are judging you, as you are today as a mature, experienced professional, as opposed to a former adolescent or a former child.
Mat Lock
Absolutely. And I should really appreciate that the reference, the way you're framing, it is a double standard, because you're right. Most leaders absolutely will praise and support and be very generous with helping others to thrive and to grow and so on yet. Don't do it for themselves. It's really It's quite a fascinating subject, isn't it? But added interest? And I know we did talk about this briefly previously, but and that interested me as well. So the the self talk the the self, congratulations. How's that different from affirmations?
Luke Chao
Good question. So, when I hear the word affirmations, and I'm not talking about all affirmations, I'm just talking about the way it's sometimes taught. I imagine someone looking in the mirror, imagining how they want to be, and telling themselves that that is how they are, or that that is the current truth. And often, when people do affirmations, they just don't believe themselves, or they feel like they're lying. And it's because in a way, they they kind of are. Now, when you're giving yourself supportive or self congratulatory has such negative connotations. But I would say in the privacy of your own head, it's appropriate, it's just like when you're fist pump, at the office, that's where it can get kind of tacky. But inside your own head to to recognize the good work that you do, is actually recognizing the truth. The difference between affirmations as I've described, I know it's not all affirmations, but affirmations as I've described them. And, you know, being self validating, or being your own best source of encouragement and praise, is when you're giving yourself encouragement and praise, you're recognizing that you did sacrifice a lot earlier in your career to be in the role that you're at, you do deserve the audience's who sit and lap up everything you say, you know, these are the truths of your present life that may not have been true 20 or 30 years ago, like we had discussed, but the present a truth is you've built up your career, you've built up your your life up to this point, you are actually the person who did that. And that's the difference between, you know, kind of telling yourself that you're that you're a leader. Yes. You have no direct reports.
Mat Lock
Yeah, sure. Um, and that, that also makes a lot of sense, I have to say. So in terms of the self talk in terms of the self, congratulations, to give advice to your clients about how to do that, or when, when the triggers would be to start instilling that is that habit.
Luke Chao
So, in terms of the content, I summarize it, succinctly, as what you would say, just someone you're mentoring, who's in the same situation, as you are what you would say to a friend or a child who's in the same situation as you. And I don't really have to say anything else. Because people who reach leadership positions, they know how to praise they kind of know how to manage. So the right words are there, I'm just saying and the double standard and talk to yourself that we would talk to any of your employees, when it comes to how to kind of recognize when went to be doing this? Often, it's when So, earlier I talked about how some of my clients will have a stressful work day they'll go home to open a bottle of wine or to smoke a joint and that's the habit they first present with. So one answer that comes to mind is that it's it's when you feel tempted to do something to fulfill something that's not actually a need. Now, I would actually say that if one is to be happy, one should have his or her accomplishments validated. Write that it's not a luxury, like, Would you ever put someone you're managing in a position where you never give them positive feedback, but their mistakes are noticed? Probably not. Because that person would thrive. Yet, you know, many of my clients put themselves in an environment, even if it's inside their heads, where they have no positive feedback, or very little positive feedback. And yet, all their mistakes are amplified. And they do hear the criticisms. And we can't expect anyone to thrive under those conditions. So many people will drink a bottle of wine when they get home and people smoke a joint. So the the the trigger is that, you know, when you feel a lack, just like if you feel thirsty, it's telling you go drink some water. If you feel hungry, it's telling you go eat some food. But if you have worked hard, if you've done good work, and you feel a lack, because your good work hasn't been recognized fat, right, there is the right time to fill in the gap, pick up the slack, because you're at the top of the hierarchy, be a good boss to yourself, and to give yourself the same validation, the same praise that you would give anyone else in your situation.
Mat Lock
And that relies, I mean, understanding your audience. There's an intelligent, logical angle of everything you've just said that I imagined. They get it, no question. But in the heat of battle back into when they're not sitting in your comfy chair, with your silky, smooth, relaxing voice in areas when they're in the heat of battle, actually implementing that remembering to implement that in the right moments, because I'm sure, throughout each and every day, they are doing things that they've probably should give themselves a little high five for but they somehow take for granted. It's just watch what I do. And almost just one next move on to the next thing. I think that's something through hypnosis that you can help with? Or is it just really appealing to the logic and intelligence of a person?
Luke Chao
Or it? So you might notice that the kinds of attitudes or perspectives I give to people are quite logical, I sort of apply the standard of is this something a healthy person would think, is this some subject is this a perspective or a belief that an ideal person would pick as a belief or a thought pattern or a habit to to keep. So change often feels like a big ship turning around, as opposed to a speedboat, doing a quick turn. And change actually only just kind of begins in an office like this. But it it continues in the context of the client's own life. So usually what happens is, in a first session, for example, I'll give people some foundational beliefs like the ones we've talked about, then we'll send them out to the world to live a week or a week and a half of their life. And that gives them seven to 10 days to either open a bottle of wine, or consider everything they heard and accepted while they were in this office as an alternative mindset and an alternative way to live. And usually, when they come in for session two, they'll report that some of what I've said has stuck and other parts of what I've said, have not yet stuck. So then we kind of reinforce what has stuck as your new normal. So all those nights that you sat down and you put on headphones, and you listen to your favorite music that you didn't have the time to enjoy wholeheartedly since you were 25 years old, that is gonna be the new normal, or an example of the new normal. And then we kind of put a spotlight on the Knights where they exhibited a behavior they'd rather change in the future. And we look at you know, what was lacking what what wasn't quite there yet. Sometimes reinforcement or repetition is beneficial. In other cases, the messaging that I communicate to the client has to be adapted to new information that arises. So for example, if I find out that their spouse is the one opening up the bottle of wine, and they're just kind of saying yes, then that client needs an additional set of messages, compared to if they're actually finding the wine bottle and finding the corkscrew, and they're actually opening it up and they're actually finding a clean glass but I mean People don't open one by accident, people don't light up a cigarette and put it in their mouth by accident, there are a number of steps before those kinds of things happen. One, just one thing that I would say, characterizes the high achieving senior leaders who were talking about. And I think one of your previous episodes, alludes to this. But there's there's intrinsic motivation, and there's extrinsic motivation. And also, there's something called internal locus of control, versus external locus of control. And people with intrinsic motivation, intrinsic locus of control, they tend to achieve more in life. They're, they feel in charge of their destiny, when they suffer setbacks, they believe they can actually do something about it. They're not as fatalistic. And they often end up being the high achievers, they often end up rising up to the top of companies. So often, the missing piece of the puzzle isn't the ability to do something other than open the bottle of wine. Often it's they just don't really know what else to do. They haven't had any other behavior, normalize, they haven't had like a clear headed evening with their husband and their kids normalized, or at least it's been years. So, you know, one of the ways that rapid change happens is if someone has an internal locus of control, and all they're missing is some guidance as to what to think, and what attitudes to adopt, you know, you put the two together, and they're good.
Mat Lock
Absolutely. And just for those not familiar with it, I'd love if you could just dig a little bit of the locus of control what that is.
Luke Chao
Yes, yes. So, um, someone with an internal locus of control believes that the good things or the bad things that happened to them, or they're doing, someone with an external locus of control believes that the good things or the bad things that happened to them, or because of external circumstances, so talking about smokers, for example, someone with an internal locus of control, who quit smoking, thinks I did it. So you know, in their head, they think I'm the one who quit smoking. And if they start smoking again, they'll come back, and they'll tell me that they started smoking again, someone with an external locus of control, if they quit smoking, they say the hypnosis worked. They say, look, made me stop smoking, they don't really credit themselves. And then if they start smoking again, they'll come back and they'll tell me, Well, I was on vacation, my friend bought a pack of cigarettes, I couldn't help myself, of course, I had to smoke. So you can see that the internal locus of control is just so much more of a helpful worldview to operate through, that people with that worldview tend to achieve more.
Mat Lock
And what determines that we hardwired from birth to be one? Or is that something that can be trained?
Luke Chao
I actually don't know the research into it too deeply. I do believe it tends to be like a personality trait in that it doesn't change very much over a lifetime. But at least I do what I can do to remind someone if I hear that they have an external locus of control, that actually you're the one putting your boots on, trudging through the snow go into the go into the LCBO, the government run liquor store, you're the one plopping $20. On the counter, you're the one purchasing the bottle. You're the one trudging back, you're the one who's opening up that bottle of wine. And that's, that's undeniably true.
Mat Lock
And when that happened, I mean to you. Do you dig into the root cause of why certain behaviors are the way they are? Or do you have a different approach?
Luke Chao
Well, there are many schools of thought, within hypnotherapy, but also just within the world at large many schools of thought as to why we do the things we do. I'm not speaking for all hypnotherapists. When I say that I tend not to dig into causative factors. I tend to work under the, the belief that as long as we can clearly define the idea Do mindset and lead the client towards the ideal mindset and help the client around challenges they might encounter getting closer to the ideal mindset, it doesn't matter where exactly we're starting from. So I'll use the analogy of, you know, getting into a cab to, to go back home, it doesn't matter whether you're starting at this bar, or this restaurant, or this theater, you're telling the cab driver, take me to this address. And the cab driver, you know, points the vehicle in the right direction and gets you to be addressed routing around any detours along the way. So that's kind of how I see what I do, where as long as we're clearly defining the outcome, and we're helping the client route around challenges, it doesn't matter as much where we are starting from or how the client got to be the way that they did. Sometimes it's helpful to know, but it's not strictly necessary. It feels
Mat Lock
like an important reframe. And I know, for example, my foray into the world of positive psychology over the last couple of years, I immediately was attracted to the approach of positive psychology versus what I perceive the traditional approach of psychology, you know, the sit down and let's, let's take you back to your childhood let's, let's see what the root cause was. And I much prefer the spin on that the reframe with positive psychology, which is I think, what you're describing it's a similar, a similar way. And I think when we spoke last time you refer to it as you're teaching people to think like someone who doesn't have that problem, actually,
Luke Chao
yes. And in my experience, so I have done hypnotherapy of the style, where you look at the past, where you look at where, for example, a client first picked up a smoking habit. I've stopped doing it like that. And since then, and I don't know whether it's just experience. But it seems like the programs I'm doing with clients are shorter, without looking at the past. Now, before I would look at the past and the future, but it seems like cutting out that element of looking at the past doesn't take away too much from the end results. And I think, you know, my best model for how this works is that, you know, like I said, with the cabinet analogy, that it doesn't matter where we're starting from the destinations the same.
Mat Lock
Yeah, absolutely perfect. Family pressure from my side. And look, I'm conscious of time. I have to say this conversation has been fascinating. And I know, I know that it's going to be well received by our audience. Is there anything else you'd like to add at this point, I mean, just in terms of general advice, I'm going to, even down to for those who have now understood more about what you do and your approach. And therefore maybe hypnosis could actually be very useful for them. And I know that you're, you know, you're not on this podcast, sort of spruiking your services, that's not the point at all of this conversation. And that's cool. And you're in Canada. So for anyone around the world, what would be your advice, if they feel they would benefit if they and we're not here just talking about if someone has, you know, they drink a bit too much or they smoke or they eat? It's not that it's can be that it's not just that it can be that looking just to perform better just to unlock more of their potential?
Luke Chao
Yeah, well, well, I use hypnosis because it says hypnosis on my business card and my website and my door. If I had chosen a different career path, I could just as easily be an author of books that people read by the millions or I could be a motivational speaker speaking to a few 100 people at a time. Hypnosis just is how I set myself up early in my career. And I make a living at this, which kind of makes it hard to switch to like a motivational speaking career. But hypnosis is a way to kind of accept ideas more readily, but it's always the ideas that matter more. And in my opinion, a good sound idea worthy of keeping will stand up to rational scrutiny. And if it's spoken during the motivational speech, if it's written into a book, it's just as easy to wrap your head around and accept and adopt as if you were formally hypnotized, even if you might have to be contemplating that idea to make the speaker with the author's words your own. So the advice I would have is to look for good ideas wherever you hear them. Don't see yourself as fundamentally different from a confident hacker. Be relaxed person see it as they have influences early in their life that maybe you didn't have or you had influences that they didn't have. But as an adult, as a conscious self reflective human being, you can choose your influences. It's not just hypnotists it's anyone with a really good perspective on how the world works or what a high quality life is like, or what thoughts or attitudes are worth keeping, let them affect you. Take on their perspective, take other mindsets, as your own. And you'll be the judge of which perspectives or which mindsets are worth keeping. Sometimes it's going to be your own heart that gives your perspectives or mindset sometimes you have your best ideas yourself, but be selective about the thoughts that you deem worthy of keeping for, by analogy, the mental scrapbook of your mind, and then choose which thoughts or perspectives or memories are not worth keeping for the mental scrapbook of your mind. So, you know, hypnosis, like you know, as we talked about, at the start, I didn't want to emphasize the hypnosis part, because to me, this is about spreading good ideas worth keeping worth, you know, me saying and then your listeners adopting for themselves, but it's hardly just me and my office, figuring out how to live a good high quality life, the stoics had a pretty good idea of how to live a good high quality life. A lot of therapists have a pretty good idea of how to live a good high quality life,
Mat Lock
which is ultimately what we should all be striving for. Living a good high quality life. Exactly. That's certainly the message that we're moving people towards. Look, I appreciate your time, so much. Thank you ever so much for your wisdom as well. Very generous. And there you have it. Thanks very much for listening. And if you've enjoyed this, please go ahead and leave us a review on whichever platform you're using. It really does help more than you know. And if you're interested in grabbing a copy of my book, lead by example, which talks about how you can unleash your potential at work and in life. I would love to send it to you if you go to the impact project.io Take a bit of a deep dive down the rabbit hole. It'll be on your doorstep in no time at all. My thanks to Luke. We'll be posting all of the various links to Luke socials and his website in the show notes. And until next time, be brave, as Luke also said, have fun and make yourself busy having an impact in the world.
