Mat Lock
Jaemin welcome to the podcast, you are the founder of the insecurity project. And you specialize in helping entrepreneurs, leaders and business owners eradicate insecurity so that they can show up to life unhindered by doubt, fear and self limiting beliefs. You're also widely recognized as one of Australia's best life coaches. And you are undoubtedly a leading voice globally on the subject of personal insecurity. And if that wasn't enough, you're also the author of unhindered, which is the book that talks to the seven essential practices for overcoming insecurity. With all of that said, as an introduction Jamin. It's great to have you here. How you doing it, you're end.
Jaemin Frazer
Thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me. It's always a real treat to be interviewed. So I'm doing well looking forward to the conversation.
Mat Lock
Fantastic. Look, I think, as you and I talked about before, today, I know that when I first sort of came across you, you approached me, and I looked at your website, and socials and so on. And I thought, Oh, that's a bit confronting, to admit that that sense of insecurity, for example, in my life, and I felt, and then I reflected on that. And I removed it, I started to remove those barriers that I felt I'd put up automatically as a sort of self preservation mechanism. So I'm really interested start at the beginning, and understand even what insecurity means to you. And how you coach around that.
Jaemin Frazer
Yeah, well, I think it is a very vulnerable subject. You know, when I branded the insecurity project, my business coach at the time said that I couldn't use that name, just because it was too confronting and less capable away. People are insecure about being insecure is that which, which is true. But nevertheless, it's a subject that I think people suffer greatly for not knowing what to do with then, if you don't know what to do with something, and then the best you can do is kind of manage it or mask it, or at worst, even medicate it. So I just feel like it would be very unkind given my pawn chart for this subject, and my engineering kind of bent my brain around thinking clearly about it. I feel like kind of ruin to talk about anything else. But to answer your question, you know, what, what is what is insecurity? I think, if you go really meta for a moment, and just think about the human condition, I think the best summary around, you know, our universal challenge as human beings is that we want to be good, like, we actually want to feel like we are a good, decent human being. But we're actually not sure that's true. And we look back at our life and think there's a bunch of stuff that would indicate perhaps the opposite. And perhaps there's some mistakes, failures, disappointments we've made that kind of don't look good. And so we're actually afraid that if we were to fully show up, we'd be found out as not good, there'd be some evidence that we are inadequate, that we don't deserve, that there's something wrong, which is pretty catastrophic, if that were true. And so for fear of that badness or inadequacy, or lack of deserve ever been fully confirmed, we run all we hide. So we're gonna try and prove that we're good by some heroic quest to demonstrate, you know, how purpose driven we are, how much we can achieve or perform. So people will look at us and go, Oh, you're clearly a good person, by what you can do, what you can achieve, but if you go down that road, you know, you can never rest because you're only as good as your last performance or your last achievement. And you're constantly going to be doing more to generate that feeling of being good. Or the other alternative is you hide so you find a safe pocket of the world where you never really extending yourself, so you're not at the edge anyway, so no one's really going to you know, no one's looking anyway, so no one's going to find you out. So I think that's that's insecurity it's just this deep existential angst that perhaps if I were to be fully fully you know, exposed then my nature would let me down you'd find out I'm not who you think I am.
Mat Lock
Absolutely, I think anyone listening to this could probably find an example in their own life if they're being really honest with themselves. I know that I'm I certainly have insecurities of course. And I'm reasonably aware of what they are and but I'm sure if I was coached by myself, I'd be able to dig deeper and, and master their spectral control those better. But I'm sure most people listening can probably if they're honest, relate to some example. where there's an underlying fear that is stopping them from doing something or a number of things. The fear of failure, the fear of being seen as a failure, the fear of not succeeding. I know that with, with our business, that's very much true. Even when we're talking to prospects about, you know, coming on board and joining the community, even there, sometimes it's obvious that there are fear based sort of limiting self beliefs in place that you are, I'm not good enough, or it's not for me, because, and they sort of give all sorts of reasons why that might be the case. I'm really interested to, and thank you very much for, I guess, giving us the anchor now around which this conversation can unfold with an understanding of insecurity. What's the starting point for you when you're talking to someone, or maybe it's not someone you're yet to coaching? But they've expressed some sort of interest? They've reached out to you they've done your scorecard or they didn't read your book and have made contact with you? How do you? How do you broach the whole topic with with people you don't yet to have a relationship with?
Jaemin Frazer
Yes, so I like to describe most of my work as coaxing scared kittens out from under the lounge to the saucer of milk. Because, boy, there's so much angst around the review of fear and the review of insecurity, it's just such a daunting topic, such a vulnerable space. Like, you know, there'd be dragons back there, I don't know what to do, it just feels too big, too scary, too overwhelming, surely everyone's insecure. So you just you just manage it, you don't really talk about it, you just get on with your life. So it's a big deal for someone to you know, not run or hide, but turn and face it. Instead, it's kind of goes against all natural instincts, all self preservation strategies. You know, however, when when someone is intrigued by this insecurity project work, and here's something that piques their interest around a different approach to this subject. My way in is to turn the lights on and go, could we just, we just at least have a look at exactly what we're dealing with heat. So you might be surprised. In fact, that's my pitch to you that you'll be very surprised when we can get really precise about this thing that's been terrorizing you, it won't be what you think it is. And the closer we get to it, the smaller it will become. I say to people often that fear unexamined grows, it becomes a monster it takes on a life of its own, but fear examined is always diminished. So just the courage to have a clean look about what this thing is. That is the way in the precision and the accurate diagnosis around what insecurity is built on. It's It's the it's the wind of the process, because it gives you a sense that this is a solvable problem when you understand exactly what you're dealing with.
Mat Lock
Yeah, sure. I mean, I wanted to ask that the ultimate question is, why should I care? But that I was thinking about that question. It's the wrong question. Because I think a better question is, what? Why should I do you know, why should I focus on this, it's easier and more comfortable, to continue hiding, for staying under the couch to use your example, and just be the kitten under the couch and my little safe space? And if I don't come out from under the couch, nothing bad can happen to me, as I perceive it, so what's the motivation for anyone to come? What's the sort of, I guess? What's the saucer of milk to use your job? What is the source of milk?
Jaemin Frazer
Yes. So you know, that that is a very common feeling and attitude towards is what will be the point, you know, you know, but that is an act, that's an inaccurate perception. So I say to people all the time that just because something's killing you doesn't mean you have to pay attention to the fact that's killing you. You know, this is how anyone smokes cigarettes is just you don't pay attention to the cost. You don't want accurate cost assessment, you just go, Well, you know, it's just a thing. And I'm okay and kind of addicted now. And all right, but you know, PRAK practice three in the seven essential practices is to stack the pain, so no one has ever solved the insecurity problem in their life, except from a place of great pain. And that is to get eyes on the cost. So to go if I if this is true, I've got these limiting beliefs, these assumptions and opinions that are no good. How is that actually costing me? So I feel like it's very dangerous to examine this, but maybe it's actually more dangerous not to examine this. So if I can see Clearly what what the impact of unresolved insecurity is on my life now I've just really given myself a massive motivator to make change. Because typically people link massive pain to self awareness. And therefore the pain of staying here is, is less than the pain of change. But if you can do an accurate cost assessment on unresolved insecurity, you realize Holy smokes, this is killing me, this is impacting every single area of my life, then sure, there's pain involved in change, but it's now less than the pain of staying the same. So it's one of the great motivators is an accurate assessment of pain. And the other side is, you know, a clearer picture of desire. So, you know, to desire is human. So, most people have suppressed desire, because it's too costly to focus on what they want. It's just like, This is not how the real world works, you don't get what you want, you get what you get your saddle you survive. But to do that, consistently is to design is to deny your own humanity, suppress the very best of you. So to get back in touch with the dream that you have for your life, and to realize, Oh, my goodness, you know, I will never become the person. I deep down now incapable of being while ever I've got these all consuming fears that I'm not good enough, or I don't belong, or I don't deserve. That's, that's the thing standing in the way of living the life I feel capable of. So I'll never get what I want, if I don't. So I think they're the two things that really drive up the reason why anyone would embark on a journey of examining and deconstructing insecurity.
Mat Lock
Yeah, I think desire, maybe the goal setting piece, or the desire piece, again, to use your example of smoking. As an ex smoker as a reforming smoker, many years ago, now, I know that, I would always say, oh, you know, oh, yeah, I'm doing it now. I'll get to it, I'll get to it. I'll get through it. I just kept pushing it away, kept pushing away, knowing that I shouldn't do it, knowing that there was no upside. It was ridiculous, all those things. But still I do it and tell myself, well, I'll get to it. I'm going to stop. But it's not now. So is that where the desire piece comes in? Is that by getting real clarity around what the goal or the desire is?
Jaemin Frazer
Well, it's both Yeah. Because you you will, you will have a clear example of this in your own life, how you actually quit smoking was was a mixture of both. Understanding this is costing me in every way possible. So the costs outweigh the benefits. And hang on, this is not really what I want for my life. I can't have what I really want from my life while continuing to smoke. So you would have done exactly that you same as people. Yeah, I probably should do a work, do some personal development work, he I really probably should investigate the stories I've told myself, but you know, I don't really need to I can do that later. Until you get to a point where like, there is no later like, this has to happen. Now I must, because the stories are ruining my life and stalking me getting what I really want. So it's exactly the same.
Mat Lock
Yeah, sure. That makes total sense. Look, your book unhindered, the seven essential practices for overcoming insecurity. Number three, I think you've just talked to through about stacking the pain and getting on the cost. Where's the starting point? I mean, are they in sort of chronological order? Well, they are, number one, the starting point,
Jaemin Frazer
that they are on a very logical person, very pragmatic, I have an engineering bent into my brain work. So I love thinking clearly, I think there's a lot of lightweight fluff in the personal development space. And I just want to know, how does this work, because if I can see how it works, I can deconstruct it. And if I can deconstruct it, well, then I can replace it. So I think insecurity is a very predictable problem. It's a very structured problem. It's not weird or mysterious, or magical. It's very clear how its formed. So so the way in practice, one stepping into the light is to name your fear. Yoda says named master your fear be before banish it, you can. So as I alluded to, before, if you could get eyes on exactly what this is, this becomes a solved problem. So just a quick example of that, most people in their estimation of what they're afraid of have stopped at a level of abstraction that hasn't given them any extra skills or tools to solve the problem. So they think, you know, I'm afraid of failing. That's true. I don't want to try something and not work out. So I'm kind of paralyzed by this fear that it might not go, how I wanted to. But if you think that's the bottom of your fear, if you think that's the most precise language for what you're afraid of, will that's that's an alarming discovery. Because if you are afraid of failing, the only proven way never to fail is don't try things. So that's the only way to solve that problem.
Mat Lock
But but for a lot of people, that is their reality. That's
Jaemin Frazer
exactly that's exactly right. And the same, the same is true if you think, oh, no, it's not failure so much it's rejection. That's my deep fear. I'm afraid of putting myself out there and not being liked not being accepted, you know, being rejected, dismissed, not fitting in, that's what I'm afraid of. Oh, cool. Well, again, if that's your most honest truth around your deepest fear, you're in trouble. Because the only guaranteed way never to be rejected is don't ever put yourself out there. Don't ever have an opinion that's different to someone else's, or obsess about pleasing every single person you encounter for the rest of your life. You know, both of those strategies are a nonsense, which is good, because it goes Hang on, then if the strategies are a nonsense, maybe I haven't understood the problem. And that's, that's my point. Of course, you haven't understood the problem, you are not afraid of failing, and you're not afraid of being rejected, I promise you that is not anywhere near what you were afraid of. It's the level beneath that it's the personal implication of failure, or rejection, ie, if I was to fail, what does that say? Or reveal about me? Sure, that I am a failure. There's something wrong, there's something inadequate and something lacking here. Or if I was to be rejected, when I put myself out there, what does that say? Like, clearly proves that I'm, I'm no good, I don't belong, I don't deserve. So we're actually most afraid of our own opinion, our own assessment, we just don't want to confirmed by the world. So it appears the fear is out there with what others think that's not it, it's what you think your own opinions, that's what you are afraid of, that's the only thing you care about. And when you can see it like that. It changes the game in terms of how solvable This is.
Mat Lock
And to let people off the hook a little if that because it may be. I mean, to be fair, some most people who are listening to this somehow on the path of self development by default, Otherwise, they wouldn't be listening to this podcast. But that said, there's probably it can be quite confronting Canada to hear these things. And that the lack of awareness around this, it's not their fault. It's the way we're brought up. Most of us are brought up in a society where it's, you don't want to be the tall poppy, particularly in Australia. That's the thing that tall poppy syndrome, and it's somehow a societal norm. I would say,
Jaemin Frazer
well, that's how it seems. However, that doesn't give you any value in thinking about it like that, either. So
Mat Lock
no, no, no, of course not. But if that's the way we're generally brought up, if we're here to conform to fit in, not to rock the boat, don't push, you know, don't poke the bear. That's typically how we're brought up think about in school environments, which I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that I think well, why most people are bias this way.
Yeah, and I'm sorry, I'm sorry to have to enforce this point here. But it is everything about this the insecurity project, because that is a common way of understanding what the problem is, you know, if you if you go practice one step into the light, what's the problem? Well, it's your own opinion of you. That's the heart of this. Okay, then the next thing is, Well, where did those opinions come from? And most people go, Well, of course, of course, I've got these opinions, because that's society. That's how I was brought up. That's what I was taught. That's where I was moral. That's what people said, it's what people told me so. Okay, well, yeah, the part it is what it is, that's how it happened. So what am I supposed to do other than now manage these opinions I've formed, whereas, you know, practice to is around responsibility, and the heart of it is to break through the trap of misdirection. So a magician is only trick Well, as far as I can tell, you know, there's no magicians really doing anything supernatural. But the average the average magician is only working with misdirection, ie, if I can have you fully paying attention to my left hand, I can get away with anything in my right hand. And so there's no magic here, just you're distracted. You know, I had this still had this latex thumb, that I could hide a red cloth up inside and the kids were just always astounded that I could make this cloth appear and disappear by they didn't know I was hiding in my thumb.
Mat Lock
Is that how they do it? Is it magic not real?
Jaemin Frazer
Well, sorry. But, but so you know, the whole thing was that they don't think that it's a thumb because they're never looking there. I'm distracting them by looking somewhere else. And when my daughter one time was standing behind me watching me do the trick, my son and his mates, she was like, what's that thing on your thumb that and then it's obvious. It's, you know, sticks out an inch longer than one my thumb it's the wrong skin shade by three tones. That looks hideous. So the moment you see where the action is really happening and the tricks over so this is this is the real challenge. around where people get stuck. And this is the heart of practice to once you've identified you've got an opinion problem is to realize how was this opinion created. And the misdirection is to feel like I It was created by what was said to me done to me not said to me not done to me, you know, therefore I am a product of the world I grew up in. That's actually not true. That's not where the magic happened. I love Don Miguel Ruiz book, The Four Agreements, I think it is true the subtitle of Book of Wisdom, I think that is an accurate assessment of that, that book, it's an it's a brilliant contribution. But he says, you know, look, where life is not shaped by the words spoken to us, just just by the ones we agree with. So we're actually implicit in our own structure, we are not the actor in the story with a storyteller. And that's not to blame the child, going through these experiences. It's just a highlight. We've we've always had the pen, we are the ones agreeing or disagreeing. We are the ones forming our own opinions, we're sensemaking creatures, we go into the world, we have experiences, but we get to decide what they mean. So no one has the power to bless us or curse us without our permission, no, no society, no culture, no parents, no upbringing, a teacher can actually just impose a set of beliefs, it might look like that. But that's misdirection. The real mechanics and the real action of what's happening is young people are agreeing or buying into an ideology or thinking a way of being and accepting and therefore they are creating their own map of the world. So a subtle difference but, but a breathtaking difference, like a very empowering one. Because if you were the one that created your own opinions, well, then you are the only one who can change them. You don't need to wait for society to change or someone else to give you permission, or some kind person until you're awesome. You know, or a bully to apologize or someone to make it up to you. It's all you here. So you have the power.
Mat Lock
I love it. And please, never. You're quite the gentleman. But please never apologize for pushing back with anything I'm saying, because that's why we're here at the end of the day. And I think I'm fairly typical. So in terms of not being wise in this arena, which is why it's great to have the opportunity to speak with you. So please put your big boots on. And when you do.
Jaemin Frazer
That's just the, you know, this is the heart of the insecurity project. This is a solvable problem that not only can you solve this, you must it is your most important adult work, to go back and review the narratives of your child to go back and review the things you agreed with the assumptions you formed, the sense you made of disappointment and heartache and failure when you were young. Because it's in the personalization of those painful moments that you cursed yourself, you created a limit on your experience, you decided that because it went that way, it must have been a reflection of your nature, and your value and your worth. And then you double down on those opinions and those assumptions and those agreements. And then that's how you've lived your life, assuming your map of the world is true and accurate. But it's not you know, it's a work of fiction told by a scared kindergartner. You know, just trying to cope with the challenges of life. So even the best stories told by a kindergartner are still weird, like none of them are true. So this is the great irony, people are terrified about going back, assuming they're gonna find something real. But there's nothing real back there. It's just, you know, the work of fiction told by a kid. So in every case, when you go back and review the data, you realize the stories you've told, are outdated, misinformed, simple, overly simplistic, based on limited data, so they're all to be updated. And that's the point that's your adult work is to free yourself from those assumptions and improve them. Not just for your sake, not just for your family's sake, not just for the work, you're doing sake, but for the whole world. Like when adults come into the world compromised by these disempowering narratives, you weaken the collective consciousness of the planet. It is how the world is healed by adults who who do the healing work on their own self, and come into the world then with nothing to prove, and nothing to defend and then free to really show up as themselves.
Mat Lock
And I have to say it feels incredibly, incredibly profound. And for that, I'm grateful. And there's a subtlety which I just want to, I guess put a spotlight on because the subtitle of the book is the seven essential practices for overcoming secured and we're, we're stepping through the seven, but they are practices aren't there. It's not seven steps to seven. There really are practices and that gives the impression that these are things which they require awareness, they require work, and I assume ongoing work their practices of it like a meditation practice or a yoga practice.
Jaemin Frazer
So really important distinction here, the aim of the game is to completely eradicate insecurity from your current level of growth. So you can show up here present and unguarded. So that means actually solve it, not just manage it. However, if you do that, and when you do that, you will therefore, naturally take new territory in life, you'll explore bigger games to play in bigger rooms to be, you know, new games to play. And therefore, you will encounter new levels of uncertainty, and therefore, bang your head on new assumptions that are now in the way new insecurities. And so the same seven practices that got you free, that solved the problem at the last level of growth will again solve it at the next level of growth. So the practices in season until you're free, and then you don't, you don't need to practice it, when you're free is a practices for when it's appropriate. So that's the distinction rather than, again, as people assume, you know, lifelong work forever managing this forever, you know, the tendency is to always go back into these things. So you'll always have to be managing your own narratives. Not true. Your work is to deconstruct the narratives, so they don't actually make sense anymore. They're not real for you. You know, new data makes old data obsolete. I, when I was young, I used to think the round cycling track was called a mela dream. And I was sure that that assumption was accurate and true. And that's how I set it in my mind until I said it out loud. To someone said Meldrum What do you? It's a velodrome. Like, ah, that's embarrassing. And then, then it's like, well, now with that information, I can never say melodrama again. Because I know it's not real. It's not true. So it's not like I have to remind myself every day for the rest of my life. It's not a melodrama. It's a velodrome. It's like, the bubble has burst. That story does not make sense. I've just updated to a better map of the world a more accurate truth. So cool. That's now how I live my life velodrome from here on it.
Mat Lock
Yeah, great example, actually. So our practice one step into the light, yes. To take the pain was number three, or get eyes on the cost. Number two,
Jaemin Frazer
was take 100% responsibility. So that's the kind of understand that although it looked like these opinions were formed by society, or culture, or parents or schools or bullies or whatever. No, you you are not the actor in a story being written by someone else. You are the storyteller. So you created these opinions. And maybe it was all you could do at the time. So again, there's no blame there. But it's just to highlight the heart of where the activity took place. And to emphasize, you're the hero in this story, right? You created this mess, you already know how to tell stories, you've been telling stories your whole life. So of course, you could change those stories, because you wrote the first version and the second version. So I Okay, you've got this. Yeah, so that's, that's practice to responsibility.
Mat Lock
Excellent. So number three, stick the pain, get it
Jaemin Frazer
back accurate cost assessment, which is counterintuitive, because you're gonna want to avoid pain, and pretend that it's not costing you. But if you're willing to be courageous, and tell the truth, then you'll realize, Oh, look at this, these unresolved opinions of myself are robbing me in every area of my life, which won't feel fun, that will feel really, really discouraging and upsetting but a lovely gift, because pain is designed to protect you from further pain. So if you switch off the pain signals, now you've got no protection for worse pain down the future.
Mat Lock
Can you help? How do you help coach your clients to break through that natural tendency to avoid the pain to avoid the confrontation of their?
Jaemin Frazer
Well, you know, so we'll get to practice five, but just to preempt that there get help from someone who doesn't care about you. That is a very important part of this process. Because
Mat Lock
Fantastic.
Jaemin Frazer
Well, it just if I you know, when they reach out to me as coach, and I got a look, you can't confuse me as someone who gives a shit about you. Like, I know, I look like a guy who cares. And I sound like a guy who cares. But I will forget about you. I won't lose any sleep about you over your problems. I'm not the one with the problem here. My life's fine, I'm not insecure. I've solved this problem me. So I don't need anything from you. And I want anything for you. You can't please me or disappoint me. So I'm just here to help you get more of what you want. But you've got to want it because me wanting it for you. It's not only useless, it's a judgment. So let's not do that. So when we established that space, that clean space, dispassionate observer, just here to serve, then you get that some pretty direct conversations with people. The things I get away with saying you're like, oh, boy, you couldn't say in any other space, no way in the world. So it's a very truth telling space. It's just, you know, I get to say to people all the time, just be an accurate mirror. People say I, you know, I don't, you know, I don't like this situation. I'm really dissatisfied. This is not working for me and I go, What do you mean, it's not working for you been doing it for 30 years? How is that possible? You love this? You love being anxious, you love being treated poorly, you know, you love having a pity story to tell. That's how you validate your whole existence. I don't care, by the way, but let's just tell the truth. And so it's a very confronting space.
Mat Lock
Yeah, liberating, I imagine. Well,
Jaemin Frazer
of course, of course, liberating because you kind of go hang on a minute, and I created this. Wow. Okay. So if I'm already the creator of this experience, and already exactly where I've chosen to be, well, then I could make other choices. Surely. So show me more. Tell me more. Let's, let's keep the lights on and see all of how this works. Very, very empowering, very confronting, but very clean because there's no vested interests. So back to your initial question, how do you help someone break through the National natural aversion to pain? Well, you create a clean space, we're able to tell the truth. And then you know, it's just like a business that's trading insolvent Lee, you can trade in sovereignly for 10 years, just by not telling the truth just by pretending things are better than they are just by having this nanana like, it's we're getting there. No, it's just breakthroughs just around the corner. And you know, I just get a sense that this thing's gonna work. Someone sits you down and go, can we just have a look at the numbers here? This is actually not working? Like, no, it's not going to work. This is you're doing something illegal here. This is the face the music is like, Oh, my goodness, that's horrible. But okay, now I've seen the truth. Okay, well, okay, well, this is no denying what's actually real here. So, the same with people's like on Ask Escom getting there? No, no, I'm actually making progress. No, you're not making any progress. None at all. In fact, you're going backwards, your relationships are getting worse, your health is deteriorating, your finances are floundering, you have no sense of purpose, like you're stuck. As a boy, that is actually true. Never heard myself say that out loud. But it's true. Okay, if it's true, then then let's hold the space around it being true. And let that truth, create a massive motivation to to do something different. So this doesn't remain true.
Mat Lock
So that was okay. So step four, then my apologies for inadvertently missing what happened. So practice number four.
Jaemin Frazer
Well, so Anthony Robbins has done some great work around pleasure and pain, being the two great motivators, everything we do is either an attempt to avoid pain or pursue pleasure. So, you know, practice three is to get eyes on the cost and be motivated away from insecurity. But if you just have your change strategy to get away from pain, then the massive motivation you've got to do something different will generate massive action. But that massive action will create massive results, which, which will then dial down the pain, and therefore the motivation also, and then six months later, you'll be back to where you were, you'll have just done enough to get out of pain. And then you'll stop. So practice for is to develop a compelling vision for your life. So don't just get eyes on what you don't want. get eyes on what you do want instead, what's the dream? What's the desire? If you could have anything in your life? What anything would you want? You know, this model, you know, loosely follows the hero's journey, which was Joseph Campbell's great work in the 1950s and deconstruct storytelling and create this map around stories that motivate us. But the hero's always got to have a quest. There's got to be trying to do something, there's some ambition for some meaning and purpose. Otherwise, what's the point? You know, what's the point of coming out of the land? What's the point of facing fear? What's the point? If Frodo was not compelled to read the world or the ring? Why is he getting attacked by orcs everyday? Like, why is his life on the line, you know, go back to the Shire for it, I go back to where it's safe. It makes no sense to be risking everything if you don't have a very compelling reason. So, you know, they're all difficult stages, but I think practice for is particularly difficult. Because most people have been pretending for so long. They don't know what they want, or they don't want anything. And so they've really turned the desire button off. So that can take a little bit of coaxing. But I never believed someone when they say they don't know what they want, or they don't want anything. That's just not true. It's impossible. It's just they're afraid of the implications of wanting again, it's going to it's going to increase their chance of failure or rejection or exposure, it's going to increase conflict in their world. It's going to cause them to come face to face With the discrepancies in what others want for them, so it's a it's a problematic thing to explore. However, all change all improvement, all growth, all innovation comes from that question, what do you want? I guess the adult question if the central human question around being an adult human being just one of you, you're valuable and worthwhile, what do you want to do with what you've been given? Where you're taking this thing? What's What are you pursuing? What what gives meaning in life to you?
Mat Lock
Absolutely. I mean, that's huge. I'm guessing that practice five, sort of getting advice from someone who doesn't care about you? I'm assuming four and five work hand in hand. Because I guess when someone as you say, most people go, Well, I don't know what I want. Or you're able, once you've got very clear about you created this truth telling space, then you're able to call BS on that, and really poke the bear and coax out of them. The honest answer, rather than the pre programmed.
Jaemin Frazer
Yeah, exactly. Right. And often people will have the pre programmed answer when they start that, and I'll just go on board, like, really, you can add anything in the world? And that's what you want? Rubbish. That's ridiculous. I don't believe you. On board. Can we stop talking about it? You know, so just, I'm just not telling the truth. There's no way that's, that's it. Interestingly, when, when a person has shut this down for so long, often the way in is with the silly ideas exercise. So I still use that, by the way, you know, my journaling two or three times a week, you know, I nice pen blank page. And I and I, okay, Jamin silly ideas only you have anything in the world what anything would you want? And there's no, the way I play that game is there is no accountability or responsibility for anything I write on that page. So swing away, like, just have fun. And, and the interesting thing about that exercise is you can't really tell the difference between silly ideas and honest ideas when you first write them. The fee people have when when these kinds of what do you want is like the moment my pen hits the page, and I write something now I'm accountable and responsible for what I just said, now, I'm gonna have to go do that. Like, no, that's not how this works. Just open the box, have fun swing away. And so only when you start to see some repetition and these silly ideas that you start paying attention. You know, all my best ideas in life have started out as silly ideas. Every single one of them was an impossibility. It was a ridiculous thing was it was weird and improbable and unrealistic and strange. But there was something compelling about something he's like, I actually want that. The first time I heard myself say, I want to be the best coach in the country. And like, what is the silliest thing I've ever heard you like, and you come from Goldman? Like, what are you gonna do? Oh, good. Yeah, good luck with that silly, silly idea. But then, then it just keeps popping up. Like, what is that? Why is that? In your heart? Why does that keep coming up? Why have you chosen being a coach? Like, if you can have silly ideas? So why haven't you chosen you want to play quarterback for the New England Patriots? Or, you know, you'd love to be the point guard alongside Lebron James? Or, like, Why have you chosen this space? What is it about that and so the more I lean into that I go, there's something honest and pure about that desire. That's that, that seems like what I was born to do. And it will be very unkind to not want that. Be very unkind. My whole heart there. But it started out as very, very silly idea. You know, same as meeting my family to Germany for nine months to see if it was possible to have time, money and mobility, Tim Ferriss great, you know, a hypothesis in the four hour workweek, like that's ridiculous. Imagine if it was true. I don't know. There's only one way to find out, move my family to the other side of the world cut off my ability to have local clients, see if it's possible, what a silly idea that's so impractical. Who could ever do that? And then, you know, four months later, after first writing that down, we're on a plane moving to the other side of the world to see if it's true, see if it works out.
Mat Lock
Really an experience but So Adam interest in our pre chat today, and we're obviously not going to name who it was, but a mutual friend of us, whose opinion we hold in high regard, recently made some reference to you in terms of your coaching. Status, I suppose in in his eyes, and that was that if you had the choice to be coached by either Tony Robbins or you he will choose you and he made that statement quite publicly. How did that make you feel them? How did that make you feel?
Jaemin Frazer
It was a special thing to have happen. An emotional thing to have happen. And, you know, one of the interesting things around having a compelling vision for your life and some of the mechanics around that is, is that the B do have model is, you know, that's been game changing. And I've got time for me just quickly explain. Yeah, of course. Absolutely. All right. So three ways that people leave in, in general, the victim, the worker, or the winner, so the victim oriented their life have to be that they kind of like, you know, when I have enough time, when I have enough support, when I have enough energy, when I have enough money, when I have enough skill, you know, when I have the right conditions, then I'll do the thing I've always wanted to do, and then I'll be happy and successful. The problem is, I don't have any of those things. So I'm waiting. And I'm also comparing myself to the people who clearly do have those things. So if I had what that person had, then of course, I'd be doing what they're doing. And then I'd be as successful as them but I don't. So it's sucks to be me hard life. And hopefully, my fortunes will change sometime in the future. So lots of people stuck in that victim have to be cycle, they wait for the rest of their life. And then there are others that are not, I'm not waiting for anything I'm working. So they are orient their life do have be. So they are like, cool, the more I do, then the more I'll have. And the more I have, the happier I'll be. So they're just head down, bum up doing the do work. And hard just, this is how you succeed in life, you just get it done, you just work harder than the next person you drive you force you fight. And so cool. Turns out, the more you do short, the more you have. The problem is, the more you have, the more there is still to have. And now the more there is to lose. And the more you do, the more there is still to do. So you get stuck in this doing and having loop and the Bing, never eventuate it's always the next having will be will be the one that makes you happy. And so you work for the rest of your life, and you never enjoy the success you dreamed of. It's just it's elusive. And the winner by far the most rare and because it's so counterintuitive, and countercultural is that they live, they do have so they're not waiting and they're not working. You know, to reference, Stephen Covey, they begin with the end in mind, one of the habits of highly effective people and so they, they're clear about what they want, but then they go be that person. Now, before they have any right to be before anyone else was saying it about them. They talk to themselves, like they already are that person, like they dress like that person, they walk like that person, they live as though that's already where they are. And then they go do what that person would do. And then they end up having what that person would have. And so, you know, I remember walking around my water tank, which is my sacred space for kind of first creation work and hearing myself actually agree that, okay, this feels true and honest, I'll be the best coach in the country. That's actually where I'm heading. And no one else is saying that about me not No one's even thinking that about me. That's a very interesting thing to say. But it's the thing I'm going to say about myself, and being the best coach in the country, then what would I be doing? Great, I'll go live like that guy. And then eventually I'll have that. And so that was 10 years ago that I said that no one has ever got close to saying that's true. But I've seen that in my world. That's how I've lived. That's how I've shown up. That's all that I've thought about. And, and so when someone else of note says that about me, it's like extraordinary. I've always known that were true. But I haven't seen the evidence of that in the real world yet until now. So the fulfillment of of leaving be to have. So it was a really extraordinary experience to have that happen. Very, very special and current kind of confirmed. The wonder of that way of living.
Mat Lock
Yeah, no, fantastic. I appreciate you going through that. I think that helps to make it very clear. And I think anyone listening to this who's really listening will have just decided which one of those they're currently predetermined as a mindset at least. And that then that might be confronting, but it's valuable to have that level of insight and self reflection, of course. So practice six, so five, commingled for sure. with developing a compelling vision for your life, and that's supported by getting advice, someone who doesn't care about you, so practice six.
Jaemin Frazer
Yeah, well, the practice five is kind of you encounter the wisdom character, which is a central component of the hero's journey. There's always a Gandalf, Yoda or Dumbledore. Dumbledore Mr. Miyagi? They're not the hero. And they're always gone too soon. It's not Mr. Miyagi who's fighting the bullies? It's Daniel son, and he's a weighty guy that you think how is he ever going to do? It's not Gandalf, that's gonna destroy the ring. He's gone. And you think Gandalf gone. How is Frodo supposed to do that? He's a hobbit from the Shire. It's just, but that's why we watch movies like that because it's so improbable that the heroes are She got what it takes to save the day. But they're the heroes. So what to go back and confront your narrative, your assumptions, your opinions, which you've doubled down on of your life and generated mountains of evidence that it's true to actually go back and confront that. It feels like certain death, it's an impossible task. But eventually, there's only there's only one way forward, like you've come so far for this process. Giving up now and turning back doesn't ease any of the pain. You know, there comes a moment in the hero's life, we, whether you either die, where you come out the other side reborn, that's, that's the only two options. So I gotta go into the cave and face the monster. And, sure, this might be where it all ends. If it is a monster, and it is true and you are worthless, you don't belong, there's something something wrong, well, you'll know for sure. And at least you'll know. However, if you go in there and confront that, from this and discover it is a work of fiction, it's all it's all imagination. It's not true. It's it's this sense making a child and you see it for what it is you come out the other side transformed. And, and so the practice six be the hero is all the conversations have happened, or the coaching or the, you know, the patterns, the the language, the tools. Now you gotta go do the work, like, no two ways about it, you've actually got to face the thing you're most afraid of, and high stakes, very, very high stakes, but not really only high stakes in your imagination, because of course, you're enough. You know, you just this is this is the beautiful thing, if you really get nuanced around insecurity, because often I hear people describe insecurity, as you know, it's the fear of not being enough, in some form or other. That's not true. It's the fear of the opinion of not being enough. You've never actually looked like, you don't know whether you're enough or not. So you can't let the moment you call it the fear of not being enough. It's a thing now it's a monster, it's real. And you can't afford to go unexamined accept monster will consume you. But when you frame it, as I'm afraid of the opinion of not being good enough, well, opinions are the lowest form of knowing anything. You know, therefore the easiest thing to change, so maybe that opinion is not true. Okay, well, then let's go have a look. You know, just like a loving parent, when their son or daughter comes in the middle of night, terrified, there's a monster under the bed, and all actually afraid of the monster under the bed. They're afraid of the thought that there is a monster under the bed. So a loving parent comes and turns a light on and go, well, let's have a look. And if there is a monster Sure, we'll burn this house down and move to Tahiti. And bother. There's no monster. And we've proven that true. You can get back to sleep. You're okay. So that's the hero work. No one's coming to save you. No one can tell you that, you know, this opinion problem of yours could be solved by someone telling you how awesome you are. Your mum would have fixed this insecurity problem years ago. This is all you and you gotta have gotta go face it. So that's practice six.
Mat Lock
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that sounds exciting. Frankly. It sounds like a very exciting practice to go through. And number seven, where do we go have that?
Jaemin Frazer
Yeah, having deconstructed the old story and proven that it is a work. It is indeed a work of fiction, written by a scared kindergartner. Now you're free to use the pen again. Now you can actually rewrite the story, you can create new opinions about you empowering narratives, you can write the story how you'd like it to go as an adult. You know, people when they hear this often want to rush to practice seven and go, I get it. So affirmations in my mirror, I'd be kind to myself create new opinions about how good I am now, which you're welcome to do. And don't let me stop you doing that by any means. However, if you haven't first deconstructed the old narrative, then the moment you get tired, stressed, triggered, and you know anxious, then that old story comes out and takes over like it always has. So your work is to deconstruct it first, then you're free to use the pen again, and align yourself to a beautiful Lincoln Pelling narrative. That's now your default.
Mat Lock
Yeah, I guess otherwise, the risk is, like so many people who go on diets with air quotes, you know, they lose weight while they're dieting and then they put weight back on and then they get back on the diet and so on. Not actually resolving the source of the issue at its most foundational level. Now, very good. Look, I appreciate deeply and I could happily talk about this stuff all day with you. But we're sort of coming up on time. And I'm interested. If there are any particular areas you feel we haven't given at least a taste. I mean, you can only do so much in a single sitting. And here we've kind of gone through all seven practices. And I know that you could easily deep dive on each of those. But in the big picture stuff. For those who are listening to this, it's their first introduction to you, they're probably, if they've got to this far in the episode, then for sure, I'm guessing this some self reflection has taken place or is taking place, what would be your advice to them? At this point, if this is kindled their interest, and some self reflection has already taken place?
Jaemin Frazer
I think talking about the, the role of courage is probably an important place to wrap up. There are a number of people who've described you know, 10 seconds of courage as a really important thing, and actually all that you need. I think that's true, especially when it comes to insecurity. You only actually need courage to begin this process. And then kindness takes over from there. So the actual first step of guy, okay, this feels insurmountable, it feels overwhelming, but I'm, I'm going to lean into this, the moment you actually get over that hump of a decision to go, I'm going to face my fear, then you realize that if this is true that this is based on an assumption or opinion made by a scared kid that it'd be very unkind to leave that job with those assumptions in place. If you saw some other kid, you know, you watch the kid, have his parents get divorced, and you're just looking at the mechanics of his heart and emotions going, like blaming himself assuming this is a reflection of him, implicating himself in that pain, you'd be going, Ah, no, it's a misunderstanding. It's not about you, like, that has nothing to do with you, this is not a reflection of your worth. I can see you taking it personally. But it's not you, you would just be compelled with kindness to bring more data to that child and help them see a better map of reality. And so when you realize there's a Wounded Child stuck in your past to you realize it, it'd be incredibly unkind to not go back and review the data with that child, not just for yourself, but for the world. Like, this is a work of great kindness for you. Because if you've never resolved these insecurities, you've never shown up and so you're robbing the world of the wonder of who you really are. That's, that's unkind. You're robbing your kids, you're robbing your partner, you're robbing your business, and you're robbing the world of the wonder of a unique, wonderful human being. So that's not courage to do that. It's just courage to start, then it's kindness, it's just the kindest thing you could do would be to resolve and remove insecurity from your life for the sake of the world.
Mat Lock
That's incredibly profound. And as you say, a very natural and powerful way to kind of wrap this conversation around the subject. And certainly, for those listening, thank you. If you've enjoyed this episode, I really would encourage you to go ahead and share it with anyone you feel would benefit from it, or would relate to it, for sure, leave us a review on whichever platform you're using, that really helps more than, you know, Jamin my thanks to you, we're going to be posting all of the various links to your your website, where people can also grab a copy of the book, your socials, everything, anyone who wants to, I mean, what's your preferred way? If someone wants to reach out and I'm getting in contact with you what what would be your preferred way?
Jaemin Frazer
I mean, I think the website, you know, the insecurity project.com or German phrase.com, then you get a, you know, access to a range of resources as an insecurity test. If you've kind of like, I don't know, if I'm insecure, is that actually my problem? Well, there's a couple of fun test to take one to kind of get eyes on the impact of insecurity on your life, the other to getting eyes on the impact of insecurity on your business. So that's, that's a an interesting way into the process to see some metrics and some data around this and then maybe the book might be an interesting next step. If you think that diagnosis is accurate.
Mat Lock
Fantastic job and thank you again into those listening. Until next time, get gritty about kicking your goals and go make an impact on the world.
