Mat Lock
Debra Sunderland. Welcome to the Unleashing Potential Podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here.
Thanks, Mat. wonderful to be here. Thanks for having me.
Of course. And before we dive into all things, leadership and culture, if you just tell us a little bit about yourself, where you are in the world, and what it is that drives you.
Debra Sunderland
Awesome, thank you. So currently, right now, I'm in Nashville, Tennessee, United States, and some part of the time I'm in Chicago. And what drives me is waking people up to the life that they're called to live because of the deaths that I was took. Trying to be the overachiever in the winter, and living my passion and my calling my purpose, my genius, and waking up others to their genius.
Mat Lock
And I know that is something you're deeply passionate about. And maybe Actually, we actually, if you're happy to have a little dive back into your backstory, therefore, and just tell us, I guess, what was the turning point for us that led you down this current time?
Debra Sunderland
Yeah, thank you. So my whole entire life until I was 42.
Mat Lock
young age
Debra Sunderland
I just gave you Yeah, exactly. I'm just gonna give you an overview of I grew up and this is not against my parents, this is for them. And for me, I'm the patterns that I learned growing up were to be the best because I wanted to be accepted. Because I wasn't accepted in my home. It was like a warzone in my home actually. And so I looked outside of myself to gain connection acceptance. And the way I did that was by being the best, being the best grade, you know, best students being the best violinists being the best track runner, being the best business, whatever sales person, best business owner, but whatever it was, it was my motivation was to be the best and at all costs, I was going to win. So I believe in the US, that is the infimum, probably much of the world, that's our goal is to win. And I didn't realize how much it was costing me. And there's a big cost to winning. And what happened was, actually I'm celebrating eight years, June 1, was my wake up, that I'm more than being a winner.
Mat Lock
And I was like I should say, congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, you're talking about sobriety. Obviously, deeply impacted. Yeah,
Debra Sunderland
it was hugely impactful. Because I was racing. I was a cyclist and I was a competitive cyclist and I was in a race. And it was really like this How crazy my brain is. It was really my be raised. Like it wasn't supposed to be where I was going to be achieving. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm feeling really great. I think I'm just gonna podium today. And, and that's how I remember that's the last thing I remember. Because in the third last lap of our race, I was doing criterion race. I was apparently bumped by another cyclist. In that bumping, I plummeted to the ground hit the curb, my skull cracked my helmet cracked, my skull cracked, nine and my ribs were shattered, my lung was punctured. My shoulder was separated and my temporal bone was broken. And I started composing because my skull, my brain bounced from the back of my head to the front of my head. So a brain bouncing in your skull, not a good thing. Not good. And so a lot of blood. And I started composing. I was raised to a trauma one hospital in Chicago. And my family was called and said, We don't think she's gonna make it you need to get here now. I was placed in a coma for my brain to not keep working so it could calm itself down. And here I am, because I'm the overachiever, overachiever. I'm going to win right so I'm here. Of course, they didn't die. I'm gonna wait at this too.
And the whole journey was about my whole life, but then turning it completely. I believe my whole journey to being almost almost dying was because I had learned so much to protect myself to be strong to be defensive. That that's why I did live besides God, the universe, people praying for me. My body wasn't gonna give up because it had known defense. It was really good at defense and When I was about to I was in a hospital for a month, and then I was released to learn to walk, talk, cut my food again, therapy, a van that came to me three to four times a week to learn how to do all cut my food.
Mat Lock
And that was due to the brain trauma, I guess.
Debra Sunderland
That was Yeah. And plus I had nine ribs that were shattered. So my whole back was cut open, and my ribs were plated and my shoulder like this whole right side of my body was no good. And, um, yeah, and so certain parts of my body weren't working, I couldn't speak, I couldn't think of words that I would normally think of it would drive me nuts, I'd say, Honey, can you go get my purple wallet, and it was orange. But I couldn't think of the word orange, I can only see purple. So but the cool thing was when I was released from the hospital to go to therapy, the neurologist came in and said to me, now I want you to be patient with yourself, because it's going to take three years for your brain to heal. You've been severely injured. And I said, Hell no, it's not. Because I'd already learned at a young age, because of my drunk trauma growing up that what I tell myself is how I'm going to survive for how I'm going to show up. So it's really important, I know what I believe. And I was not going to reject that thought. I mean, I was not going to take enough. I was going to reject that. But
Mat Lock
there's a power in that now. There's a there's an inner power in that
Debra Sunderland
there's an inner power, it's the power to choose, it's the power to know what am I going to tell myself? What am I going to choose to believe about myself in the situation? Once we choose, it's so funny that you said there's there's power in that because there I just reread something I posted right shortly after. And it's called choosing the power to choose the power to choose right to already learn at a young age. And so when I was released from the hospital, and I was lying in bed, they're like, you're going to lie here for like, two, two weeks before you can do anything because you can hit your head again. And I basically did everything the opposite of what the doctors told me. They said, stay in bed, because you can't hit your head, though. I'm like, No, no, no. So I had my friends take me for a walk twice a day around my block, I had them take me down to the basement where I had a stationary bike, and would just pedal. And I learned that well, I beat the odds and long and short of it is because I did those things. I was oxygenating my brain by working out and it made my brain heal way faster. University of Chicago hospital neurologists who works with female athletes who have a brain injury. She didn't know my accident. But she studied me, she looked at my 400 and some pages of my hospital. And she said, what you did, whatever you did, you need to keep doing because you oxygenate your brain which brought the healing about way quicker than if you had just slide around. So anyway, that's a side note. So when I was when I was
Mat Lock
a minor side note.
Debra Sunderland
It's huge. But the big the transformation for me came from from from from this moment of being in a coma, to being released out of a coma. And knowing that I wasn't supposed to live yet here I was. Here I was and and I had I'll never forget I had the thought and while I was in my home bed, crying out to God the universe and saying, certainly my life is more than accomplishing and winning and getting things done. And it's more than just helping others win and get their stuff done. What is it? What is it?
Mat Lock
There's got to be a reason I'm here. So cool. is the question. The Yeah, that deep soul searching question. Yeah,
Debra Sunderland
Totally. Because I'm like, I don't want to miss it this time. Because we all get a slap. Yep, I believe we all get by and I must have been getting slapped and was a paying attention.
Mat Lock
Sure.
Debra Sunderland
So I got slapped to the ground where I had like I had to I couldn't be the Dewar in the winter anymore. I had to lie still. So I could finally hear my purpose, my genius. Which I believe everyone has their genius.
Mat Lock
True. Yeah, I agree.
Debra Sunderland
Right. But we don't listen to it. And we don't even pause to wonder what is it?
Mat Lock
Well, we're too busy. We're too busy rushing around doing stuff.
Debra Sunderland
Exactly, exactly. We're too busy. The ego is like do this, do that and you're like, Okay, now if we go until we don't have that ability, right? And so when I was so eight months later, I'm back on my bike, so I'd beat the odds on that. I hadn't been totally healed yet, but still allowed to drive my bike, ride my bike outside, and also drive my kids to school. And this is where the transformation came. So I'm driving my kids to school, my son's about 16. He's going to school in the city that had to get on the train in a very affluent town and my little girls in the back. She's about 11 going to middle school, she sees all these amazing, beautiful people getting on the train going to work with her brother. And she says as I pull away to take her to school, this is what like struck me. Mama, why is everyone so unhappy? Getting on the train? going to work? Yeah. 11 year old saying this right. And all I could do you did exactly what you did. I couldn't answer it. It's like, ah, was like a stab in my heart because I knew it to the
Mat Lock
kinda cuts.
Debra Sunderland
Totally cuts totally cuts, right. So I dropped her off. I went home to get on my bike. And I'm just about to go. And I can see it now just about to go over the same tracks. And my purpose came to me it was plain as day. And this is what I heard. Thank God, I almost died doing something I love doing. And I was awesome at it. These dear precious people are getting on the train going to work dying a slow death every day. And they don't even realize it. I'm here to wake them that hell up. And I'm going straight to the top. Because the ones who achieve the most are the ones that suffer the most. So I went right to the CEOs. I knew that's what I was called to do. I didn't know how, but I just knew this is my purpose. I realized my purpose was my life was spared to wake up other people to theirs.
Mat Lock
That's that's profound, isn't it? And so that was how many years ago? Sorry, less years ago, years ago, keeping age away. So it wasn't the point of the question. 88 ish years ago? Yes. Yeah. So So what does that look like? You? So from that point, what, what? What changed? In a practical sense?
Debra Sunderland
Yeah. So the cool thing is, you might have this calling, but we the ego wants to figure it all out. Right? And I my ego was still my brain was still injured. So it wasn't like I could go and like research and how am I gonna do this? I had to trust that if I'm called to do this, it's gonna come forward. And so lo and behold, I met other coaches, somebody in Colorado, even how we got connected. And he's like, have you heard of the 15 commitments of conscious leadership by Jim Detmer? Diana Chapman, I'm like, no. And they actually it wasn't even published yet. It was in it wasn't in print paper print. It was a, like a final copy that I was sent. I read the intro. It was about two different lives two different ways that people live their lives. And I'm like, this is what I'm this is this is the answer this I got to reach out to this author. So he happened to live in Chicago, and we met. And lo and behold, I started to practice consciousness practice, when I get a result, I don't want How am I unconsciously creating that? Right? We might not like what we have. But we're committed to having it because it's what we have. You can't deny it. You might not like that I weighed 10 pounds more than I want to, but I'm responsible for it, because it's what I'm committed to because what I have. So learning to understand my unconscious thinking, which brings about my unconscious emotions, which brings about my unconscious behavior, which is 96 or 98% of the time, I'm not president, I'm in the future, the past like all of us. And we just keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Until we wake up to that unconscious belief system and behavior system, we're going to keep getting the same results. So my practice of consciousness is using those tools. And I'm also been certified in practice the enneagram, which is another self awareness on whether we're conscious or not tool. And then I say with Byron, Katie, and a few other amazing people, and I just actually completed NYU has an inner MBA, working on this part of how do you bring this to business? and Martin in in May.
Mat Lock
But what was your takeaway from that? What was your investment of time and energy?
Debra Sunderland
Yeah, my takeaway was that, you know, like I was with someone who teaches these things like mindfulness at LinkedIn, and some like keep, actually, Dan Goleman of Harvard was one of our professors, and on emotional intelligence, and sadly enough, I felt sad. I learned a ton. I love doing it. Talking, thinking through things. That still leaders are not willing. They're not open to get curious around how they're creating the results they don't want. They're still in the blame. They still are like, this is what we have to do this is the pattern is that we, you know, getting the result winning, they're still around. We need to win, just like I was my whole life.
Mat Lock
But isn't that how they're measured? Yeah, exactly. It's
Debra Sunderland
how they're measured. Like, are we exactly whether they're reporting to their board? Or Right, right. That's how so that's how we've all been trained. Now, when we went to school, right? Yeah. When we go to school, oh, you get an A, if you do this, this this. If you pass third grade, fourth grade, fifth grades, whatever, then you go to college, if you vote, right, so we're always being measured.
Mat Lock
And often short term, I mean, often their annual bonuses, quarterly bonuses, whatever the incentives are, they're often short term, which, of course, is always in conflict, the long term strategy.
Debra Sunderland
Yeah, yeah. And the sad thing is when we're in that state, so we're in a state of defense, which you probably already know, when we're not conscious, we're in defense for in the egos driving out of toxic fear to keep us safe. So what do you think our results are going to be? Sure, when we're just playing defense, we're not on offense versus defense. So if you're if you're an athlete, and you have a football team, and you're just like, okay, defense, and you have no offense, what are the result is going to be and this is why we have, I'm saying in the US, I don't know what it's like where you are, but people are suffering in major ways. And not just anyone, key leaders, heads of companies, executives, 35, and owners, the biggest number of people right now that are taking their lives, because they're like me, trying to win win win, and they're not getting the results they want, because they haven't been taught these tools that we most need in school and at work, is that I'm a whole being and I have wisdom inside. And I wanted to play offensively. Not defensively,
Mat Lock
it says what's the stigmas and societal stigma of success? perceived success is to win? How do you be successful you when you come out on top, you hit the goals you Whatever it is, but that's the way we're all brought up, isn't it? The way Why? It's very, I think there's very few businesses that are not structured that way.
Debra Sunderland
I know. And I want to change that I want as many people who are on board with me to make that change, because not only are we doing it school, as you know, we're doing it to our children. Yeah, of course. And now children are taking their lives, because now they have the opportunity to see they don't measure up on social media. It's in their face all the time.
Mat Lock
Yeah, absolutely. It's a very much a changing landscape, and in many ways, not for the better. So in practical terms, and for for any business owners, managers, leaders, or would be leaders, listening to this or watching this. Where do you start? Where do you start? If you're onboarding a new, let's say they're a CEO or general manager, Managing Director, someone in a leadership position or aspires to be in a leadership position? Where do you start?
Debra Sunderland
Yeah, so first of all, I say, Are you welcome? Are you open to getting messy? It's gonna be scary. Are you open to being challenged to see a new perspective, and it's going to be uncomfortable,
Mat Lock
and being vulnerable? For the alpha male in Michigan, and I'm conscious, it's not just males. I mean, they're alpha females, if that's a thing, but the equivalent? Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. If that's the right term, even but you know, what I mean, being vulnerable is an uncomfortable, it's not a position that they're normally willing to take. So, again, for anyone who's immediately being defensive, listening to this, and why it's not for me, you're trying to be Hocus Pocus. How do you break down those barriers and enable people to be vulnerable?
Debra Sunderland
Yeah, so I just say, How are the results? Tell me the results you have in your life right now in every area, whether it's work, and I want you to tell me where do you have abundance? wealth, love, work, relationship to self and others? Where's your abundance to joy? Do you have joy right now? And is this the life you most want to live? Do you have joy? I do the joy meter I asked him how much joy do you have in a day? Right? 10 is ultimate and one is, you know, or zero is none. Maybe they're gonna tell me a five or six. I'm like, Is this what you want to be doing? Are you ready to try something different? You know, and if you want the results you want, what you're doing isn't working because you still don't have them. So why don't you try something different?
Mat Lock
related with chm, which actually, I think is a lovely segue when we're not segwaying. Really, it's just to bring in the terminology or the term genius ship, which you've pointed. And what I love about that is, as you're describing it, it's about your entire life. It's not just your work life or your home life, or whatever your area of iPad today your whole life. But if you could maybe explain that just dive in a bit deeper and explain to the audience what you buy genius ship. Yeah. So the reason I chose that word, you created that word,
Debra Sunderland
I created that word. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, is because leadership. In my world, I've experienced as control, make sure this happens, I have to do this. Otherwise, it's not going to get done the way I need it to be done, you know, in leadership is managing and trolling in my world. And that's what I want to do away with, I don't want to be in that control space. I want to open up a space where everyone realizes they all have a genius, a gift inside of themselves to give to themselves in the world, that they are wired and created, like no one in all of history to live right here. And now for a very special purpose. And it's more than getting things done. And the genius is head heart and gut my whole Yes, I use I say, Is this your whole body? Yes. When you are living in your hole, yes, that's your genius. And most of the time, we don't because we're afraid to say no. So we take on things that aren't ours, we exhaust ourselves, we do way too much we have low energy. Because we're not in our genius, we might be in our excellence, which is winning. But it's scary to trust that I can really live the life I most want to live. And it's scary to trust that I really do have a genius and it's scary to trust, I can make money being in my genius zone, because the ego is always there saying well, wait a minute. So it it it is a place of Can I am I willing to trust jumping from getting a lot of stuff done and having a bunch of gold stars and a lot of money, but I'm exhausted and I'm not fulfilled? To Can I have even more than what I'm creating right now and be fulfilled? Living my whole? Yes. And learning what that means and saying trusting. When I say no. That I'm saying yes to my genius.
Mat Lock
When you thank you when you talk about fulfillment, I'm interested when you're when you're onboarding, you know, you're working with new clients, and you dig into fulfillment. And, in your opinion, based on the many, many years, you've been doing this now, the successful so called successful leaders, let's say and business owners. Are they genuinely fulfilled by that? Or God?
Debra Sunderland
No, no, no. And I'll tell you what I've found to go even deeper when I work with CEOs, around genius. And I don't work right with genius right away, because first we have to be conscious, and most people aren't conscious. So it's a journey to genius. It's a journey to discover, because we've been leaving been believing our delusion and for safety. And so what I've come to realize, and it's interesting, because I work mostly with men who are eights on the enneagram, they're powerhouses, they are bold. And people are usually afraid of them because they're so bold and they lead that way. They have told me over and over again. When I say to them, are you taking good care of yourself? Are you loving yourself? And they first of all say I don't know what that means. I don't know what that means. And then we get to their true underwriting belief is I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. And that motivation of fulfilling worthiness is what's caused them to be these big powerhouses just cause them to be really successful, but they've bypassed their genius because they haven't even listened to that they think they're unworthy in every area of their life.
Mat Lock
So not so much about imposter syndrome in their position. But literally not being worthy of fulfillment, happiness. Yeah.
Debra Sunderland
Yeah, they're striving, their motivation is to be worthy. So if you are striving to be worthy and from the outside of you, they will never be enough.
Mat Lock
No, absolutely.
Debra Sunderland
Never be enough. So they try harder and go Faster engagement. How do I know this? Because it's, it's my it's my journey. Sure. Speed journey.
Mat Lock
So it's just the hamster wheel to get faster and faster, faster and you die unfulfilled.
Debra Sunderland
Exactly our excellence I have, I think I told you this, my book that I'm writing is called or excellence is killing us. Your Excellency is killing you.
Mat Lock
I look forward to reading that book.
Debra Sunderland
Yeah, so it's really, it's really, I'll tell you how you asked me? How do I get these totally successful leaders. So I'm human with them. And I just meet them where they're at. They're perfect, right where they're at. They don't have to change, grow, do anything they can, if they want to live that way and suffer. You know, but say, Are you suffering? Or how might you be suffering? Or how might you? You know, and can I just be with meet them right where they're at. And that's just enough right there. Because they don't even take that time. To be still to be with themselves or with someone else. really be with someone else?
Mat Lock
It's often the case, certainly in leadership roles. They're often quite lonely roles only. I think they're very lonely. Often, self expectation is stacked up high. And it's a wait. And yeah, a lot of leaders I think, suffer in silence and loneliness. Which sounds Yeah, I mean, it is from Israel. It is, and this is my, I'm thankful that we're on our podcast, because I want to wake people up. Because leaders, especially men, who are executives, CEOs, and I'm serious about this, they just like what you said, they don't feel they have somewhere to go to talk to someone. Because they have to know the answer to everyone that reports to them. They're the whole company, to the board, whatever, to the banker to the lawyer to write, and they just got to know. But they're suffering so much. So this is why we got to look at the results that we're all creating in the world, that we're getting the highest suicide rates ever. Amongst these most successful people. Yeah, and substance abuse and a whole host of undesirable.
Debra Sunderland
Yeah, workers were sick. So our results that we're getting aren't working. But what do we do we keep doing the same thing. And just, you know, people aren't engaged at work, we've got the highest level of disengaged people ever, we've got high anxiety more than ever, we've got a high stress more than ever. But we're going to forget the pandemic went on. This is my whole thing. By the way, I'm making a plug on July 4, at 12pm, for five minutes, I want the world to pause. It's called the Great pause, I want us to pause and to say with our people, whether our friends, our family or by ourselves. Can I just take a breath and appreciate all I've come through in the last year and a half? The loss I felt the fear, I felt the anger. Can I just appreciate that, that I've come this far. And what's the most loving thing for me right now? And what do I want to bring to the world? What's my gift of love to the world? Because we've been motivated by fear, all this time, in great lengths. And I believe Love is the opposite of fear.
Mat Lock
So how do we suggest that during a busy workday, we should know, for us it's a holiday. For your holiday? Absolutely.
Debra Sunderland
Price is a holiday, but I want it to be a worldwide thing. And that we do this regularly. We do this every week with our people We do this every year is a remembrance that this was not for not that we couldn't go to work that we didn't have business as usual. Because it's like me getting slammed into the curb. Yep. We're gonna get a bigger something that's going to try and wake us up. If we don't get our lessons. But like in your case,
Mat Lock
you you chose to see the opportunity you chose to look through a different lens. And I'm assuming that you're hoping if you can cause people to stop and take a break and look through different a different lens that they also had. It doesn't have to be an epiphany but can be. Yeah, and it's just like just the pause in it of itself is a change. Yeah, absolutely. My pause period. Make that a daily habit. Make it
Debra Sunderland
exactly make it a habit to just because exactly like you said, we're just running and running and running and running. We never pause. And so we'll never get to our genius will never be fulfilled when and we're going to die. exhausted.
Mat Lock
So in your experiences with the clients you work with. I'm interested to, to hear about the results, both because I'm Can Can we be in a state of fulfillment? Can we feel fulfilled? Can we feel joy, and still hit our targets and keep the shareholders happy? And the life that is expected? Yeah. Is it possible to have both? It's more than possible. And it's the only way. So my clients, and again, it's a journey. It's like peeling back the onion, right? of, Oh, I gotta get going, Oh, wait a minute, does this check in with me? Does this bring me joy, because I believe all of us are wired, for energy, for joy, for love. We're all wired for that. And that brings a very different result, a connection to ourself in the world. And, you know, whatever we're up to versus fear, toxic fear when he goes driving, right? So we cannot create, we cannot connect, we cannot collaborate, we can't hear each other. When we're not in a space of love and trust. When right defense around this has to be this way. This is when it's going to happen. And you better do this. And people are like, Oh, this isn't a collaboration. This isn't a I'm being told what to do. I'm not a value. I'm just a wheel and the cog is how people feel. So how is that it's not working. So when people start when leaders when heads of corporations decide, I don't want to be a wheel anymore. I want to stand for who I'm called to be and who I want to become and what's the legacy I'm leaving? And who am I going to be remote? How am I going to be remembered? Right? And and can I raise up geniuses in my company? What do they love doing? What excites them? Where? What ideas do they have when we're an excitement and joy? Oh, my gosh, so much creativity. and excitement brings more excitement, Joy brings more joy. So what happens is, it's also welcoming to potential clients, you can walk into a corporation, you don't know nothing about them. Because I used to be in sales, when you're allowed to walk in and cold call, you could cut the knife on icky toxic culture, you can feel it like, Oh, yeah, something's going on here. You can feel that, right. And it's rare when you walk into an organization where there is love and trust being built for self and each other. And when there's that safety, then people can say, you know, you said this, and I have this idea about how this might happen better, because then the other person is willing to hear them. When we're in defense, we're not able to hear other ideas. So we're left with either my idea or your idea. And if I don't agree we're doing going with mine. So not so many possibilities for for the results growing, you're just probably just one. So for sure, we want to start to bring in that and also we're suffering with engagement. So do you want to be in good? Ai? Is it working? That are people aren't engaged? How do we change that we got to change the culture, and the only way you can change the culture is to be the change. The CEO has got to be the change because everyone's eyes are on the CEO. If they don't change, it's going to be protocol. And I'm guessing, I mean, yes, for sure. To leadership responsibility to, to guide and create the culture and maintain the culture once it's in the right place. But equally, everyone in the organization needs to be drawn to that. And that's the, I guess that is cultures and when everyone in the organization understands the purpose of the business, their role within that sense of responsibility around that, and they, by default, are part of the culture and then
Debra Sunderland
well, I wanted to say one tweak there. It's not the purpose of the culture. The purpose of the work, I should say, we always have goals, but how are we going to get them done? This is the switch here. Am I going to do it? Because I have to and you better do it and we have to do this, which is a toxic fear. Or am I am I going to switch it to Hmm, would you tell me more about that? Because right now, I noticed in my work, we use candor right now I'm feeling uneasy with you saying that and I noticed that I my defenses are going up. I'm gonna take a breath and I really want to hear what you're saying. Would you say more about that? Right. So it's not just content around this is our purpose. It's how do I go about every single opportunity to co create and create something in in the environment? Am I open and curious? And taking radical responsibility or am I a blamer? Or a shame or a gossiper? And not willing to be a co creator?
Mat Lock
Sure, but and this is the mindset in the behavior set that Yeah, ideally is adopted by everyone in the organization, because that leads to true culture. Yeah, that's correct me if I'm wrong, please.
Debra Sunderland
Yes. So everyone is on their journey. I always like to say, everyone, because I coach teams, right? organizations, organizations, everyone's on their journey around being open or not to this, to taking radical responsibility. And look, how am I responsible for the results? I'm not getting? Am I going to take responsibility? Or am I going to blame someone else for that it was raining, and I'm late. And it's giving people the opportunity to practice stepping into being awake and aware, and people take in different things at different times. So providing the opportunity is never one can I provide people the option to wake up to looking at different opportunities, and that I care enough as a leader to look at what's not working? And how might we shift and gain a new perspective, and invite my people to come with me, and they're all going to be on different journeys, and some people might never want to, and that's when a leader has to decide, is this person for me or not in my organization? Because they're not open and curious?
Mat Lock
Sure why that's the beginning, isn't it? That's the standard we have. Yeah, I guess that's, in some ways, I suspect might be one of the hardest nuts to crack in terms of opening people up, allowing you allowing them to feel safe, and be vulnerable and, and be open to discovering more about themselves. Totally, rather than, I guess, by default, the clientele that you're interacting with, I can imagine a lot of them would say well prove previous, or how do I measure this, but I need to need to be measurable need to be tangible, something I take hold on, I guess that's where enneagram comes in, and the way that you use it? And certainly, I'd be interested to hear how you do Is that what it is, and and how you use it, because I'm conscious that, you know, within our audience, we have leaders, business owners in the light, or, or even those who just they're on a journey of self discovery, and they're hungry, to be the best version of themselves, which is a bit cliche, but it's true for many people, and I applaud those who feel that within themselves. So where does enneagram fit into? The journey of you take your clients on?
Debra Sunderland
Yeah, so. So everything I give my clients are conscious tools. I tried to load them up and practice them, not just here, read this book. But how do we practice every time you get a result you don't want? Where were you not awake at the switch when you were making that decision? What were your thoughts? What were your feelings when you had those thoughts? And what were your behaviors? Because 98 to 9696 98% of the time were unconscious? I love them. So
Mat Lock
would you say I love the no BS approach of bump straight dude? Yes. So who wait,
Debra Sunderland
wait, wait, where were you asleep at the switch, right like, and it's normal, no judgment. I don't believe in judgment. Because we're all the same. We all fall asleep. From our patterns, or patterns or patterns in the enneagram is another tool to look at our pattern or pattern or pattern. So the enneagram is one to nine types. And they're all different motivations. And three, so it's nine type. So like a 789, or sorry, eight nines and ones are the gut type their body intelligence, two threes, and fours are emotional intelligence based. And five, six, and sevens are IQ based. So obviously, as a leader, you want to be like, Huh, if I'm just one of those types, and I want to have all of my intelligence, I want to start integrating to the other types. So my work is not just knowing your type. But also noticing when you're asleep at the switch, which is 96 90% of the time, how it's driving you it's your delusion, it's your delusion to safety. It's your delusion to thinking you're getting what you want, and it drives you. So when we step back, it's actually a huge self awareness tool and a growth tool because we can learn to given our type how we might grow and change so I'm a three I'm just giving examples. So I'm a three and threes are about winning and achieving. That's what a three does. So corporations are either eights or threes. Typically heads of corporations are either eights jewelleries, eights are eights or the we call them the active controller, and threes are the winners. And I'm smiling for anyone on YouTube saw me smiling, because I've got it up on my screen at the moment and number three, as you describe it is a competitive Have achiever. Is that funny, it's so funny. And so when I'm when I'm asleep at the switch, I'll give you an example when I'm asleep at the switch, and my three is running me. If my see if my assistant is talking too slowly, I'm like, hurry up, I got to get things done. You're taking too long like this, I feel anxious, I'm like, come on, and I'm not hearing her. Because I'm like, just tell me what you have to say. Right, and I'm doing six things at once. So things are probably getting done, because I'm like, gotta be efficient, that's a three same got to be efficient. And then the three also is they will not fail, that's our default, there is no way I'm going to fail. So that means we can never stop winning, which means we never rest, which means getting the goal is the most important thing. So three suffer from relationships. Because they don't have time when their unconscious is unconscious, they don't have time to really build a long lasting relationship, because you're just concerned about winning the goal. So when I see myself going fast, I know my three is running, I take a deep breath. Because I know I'm not a three, I'm all nine types. We're all integrated, we're all whole and perfect. But when I get triggered, I go to that pattern. So myself down. And I look at what could go wrong. What might I learn if I because threes never think there's something's going to go wrong. They just went nuts, right? But there's wisdom and looking like what what happens if I do this? Right? What happens and if leaders are not looking at what happens, there's gonna be a lot of things that happen. So this is to give you an idea. And each type has its pattern and what it does, and it's learning the type. And so I always couple, the enneagram meets conscious leadership. So I do a full day workshop on just an intro to What is consciousness and the enneagram? And how do they support each other and waking up to the patterns that service but only have gotten this far, but they're not going to get us to where do you want to go?
Mat Lock
Sure. So a couple of couple of points around that, if I may. So firstly, it's not about right or wrong in terms of the type that you whether you're a one through 10 it's not about right or wrong. It's about awareness. Yes, yes. And I'm guessing it's really important if you're, if you're running a you know, if you manage a team or a whole company, and you've got different personality types, how they those personality types, not only how to help them, put their best foot forward, but how to interact with each other, that I'm guessing some of these personality types are not naturally going to gel and go together, they need some support with that.
Debra Sunderland
Yeah, that's beautiful. So when I'm coaching teams, we actually you can type a whole organization on the enneagram, like a whole organization will show up as a nine or whatever it is, meaning there's high sides, and there's those sides to that organization as a culture. And so then where are the stretches and growth points within the type that we are all together? When we when I go deeper, and I'm working with smaller teams, I actually coach them around, okay, you know, this person is a three and making up a story or whatever it is. So how might they hear you? How might you speak to someone when you know, their event is to hear you as a three? What are the words that you might say? Or how might you say it? Or what questions might you bring to the table knowing their that and to challenge them in their three, right? Like for sixes, for instance, I work with a very large wealth management firm in Chicago. And it's kind of crazy, but sixes are about they always think something's gonna go wrong. So when they think something's gonna go wrong, go the the loyal skeptic is what we call them, when they think something's going to go wrong. They're like this looking like the shell game. They're looking to see what could go wrong, what could go wrong, they don't make decisions, because they're thinking something's gonna go wrong. And they just want to have more answers, more answers or answers. So I would coach there, you know, this is a CEO and the CEO, a CEO and CEO, we're both sixes. So their team, they had 12 executives underneath them. I said, when you hear so and so asking you for more and more, I want you to stop them and say, Where are you asking from? Is this from a state of fear or of trust? Because they will never give them enough answers for them to make a decision. And it's for the the CEO to wake up and notice that they're in their six pattern to let go. And then take a deep breath. So I give them breathing skills, a whole bunch of self awareness tools to come back to the present moment, right. We're either in the future. And we're fearful because we don't know what's going to happen or we're in the past and we're hanging on to sadness and resentment and gret. Right, regret. So we want to come back to presence and so I teach them how to be present by breathing. And then also doing meditation, all of it, they get all the tools to like be present here. And now.
Mat Lock
So here are taking we're talking about having illuminating the potential that individuals have in every aspect of their life. We're not just talking about a working farm job, we were talking about the whole. So exactly, do you tend to find that your clients therefore? It's Yeah, it's not just the work environment you're supporting them with and helping them with it improves their personal life, their performance in every aspect of their life.
Debra Sunderland
It's amazing. So we were taught, like, if your dog dies, and you go to work, don't be sad, because it's not the place to be sad, right? That's what we were taught. Pretty much, right? Yeah, sure. And I bring that up. Because the thing about that was management for my children about there was one of the guys on my team that I coached and the really, his dog did die the night before. And he said, if it were not for these tools, to feel my feelings all the way through to welcome them to let them come through my body because normally to stuff them, and then we get sick. And to use some of these tools. He's like, I could have gone into work for four days, it would have taken over me. So the I've learned from some marriages change. Marriages change changed when I work with him. kids lives change, because the CEO, the executive start to teach their children tools, they aren't given in school wareness tool, self awareness tools. And so it's across the board. It changes.
Mat Lock
Debra, genuinely could chat to you all day. Long time. Yeah. And maybe maybe this is not the first and only time we get you on the podcast. But I certainly haven't been so generous with your time and wisdom. You mentioned you're writing a book at the moment called your excellence is killing you in the future. Where would our audience be able to go and find out more about that book or to get a copy of the book? Of course.
Debra Sunderland
Yeah, well first reach out to me. Because I'll have a handle on that hopefully.
Mat Lock
For sure be found via Sunderland. coaching.com. I'm guessing
Debra Sunderland
Yes. Su n d e r la nd not Sutherland. Sometimes you'll put the th in there. It's su n d e r la Andy Sunderland coaching. Absolutely reach out to me there. And I always have a lot of learnings, workshops going on speaking, I'm leading a workshop here in Nashville this week on what are the four questions that a conscious leader asked to move from overwhelm to joy. So I'm always wanting to give people the tools to walk with a walk away with an aha moment, a new perspective on something they've been suffering with forever, or it's just something huge. And it just happened that day.
Mat Lock
Yeah, that's fantastic. You've also written a blog post called your accident is killing you, which we'll link to amongst all the other links within the show notes for sure. Thank them. Look, I appreciate you, Deborah, appreciate your time and sharing. Thanks, man, you've also shared a very personal element in your own life, glad that you've made not only a full recovery, but you've gone beyond where you were before as a result of that. trauma. So and you're cycling competitively now, or
Debra Sunderland
no, I'm just riding my bike and enjoying riding my bike. That's the difference. You asked me the difference. So now I get on the bike, being grateful that I can pedal and take in nature versus having to get somewhere to win two very different motivation.
Mat Lock
I suspect there'll be a lot of people listening to this or watching this in our audience that can perhaps be thinking. That's like, sounds like a place I wouldn't mind to get to. We've got some very competitive, everyday athletes. Yeah. And I wonder how much true joy is in that, in terms of what's really driving them? versus getting a sense of joy? Just enjoying it? Yeah,
Debra Sunderland
that was that took me a while after my accident to really get to that point. It was It took me about a year to be okay, with I'm not going to race again. It's too dangerous for my brain. And to finally welcome, I'm alive. And I get to be with myself in the world. Like, isn't that the gift? And this is this goes to work, right? This is the same thing for work instead of Can I enjoy going to work or do I have to do I shut on myself and I have to get a bunch of things done in order to accomplish a bunch, right or can I just enjoy being alive with the people in my work world? Sure. Very different. Yeah.
Mat Lock
That's really, really powerful message and I appreciate you sharing. Deborah, on that note, I'm going to I'm going to hit the stop button. Okay, after I've said, Yeah, just again, thank you so much for joining some podcasts and I know that our paths are gonna cross again.
Debra Sunderland
I love it. Yeah, let me know if I can do anything for you too, and supporting what you're building over there in Australia.
Mat Lock
Yeah, no absolutely.
