Mat Lock
Simon, welcome to The Impact Project podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here. I'm excited to have this conversation with you. And we're looking forward to it. How you doing?
Simon Stephen
I'm good. Mat, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. And I'm genuinely a good Ozzy word. stoked. I'm genuinely stoked to be on. I've been looking forward to, to doing this with you. So thanks for having me.
Mat Lock
Now, of course, absolutely. And a nice use of the word Stoke, because I can't congratulate you too much because I am a blow in my orbit 20 years ago, but nonetheless. So Simon, where in the world are you at the moment.
Simon Stephen
I am on my remote Hill Farm in Portugal. So I'm equidistant between Lisbon. The capital of Portugal and farro, which is the place that everybody knows in Portugal is a region called the alloantigen, which is, I guess, a bit from Ozzy perspective, it's a bit like the bush, it's old school, caught in a time warp. You know, people are still going around in a horse and cart to get to get their their provisions. And I have a hill farm right in the middle of the plantation. So that's, that's, that's where I am right now, which could not be more different from where I come from, but I'm looking forward to telling you the story of how I got here.
Mat Lock
Yeah, absolutely. Look, I've had the advantage of seeing your website with some of the amazing photographs of where you are. And of course, we'll put the link to that in the show notes. Absolutely stunning. But um, yeah, let's let's take a step back in fact, and as you say, I mean, your accent gives you away but where are you from? And let's dive into your, your hugely successful corporate career. Let's dive into that. But you're from the UK.
Simon Stephen
from the UK. I'm from Scotland. I was born in Fife. So the knots a nice part of Scotland for those of you who you know,
Mat Lock
went to school and not not so bad. so bad.
Simon Stephen
fives, okay. fives. Okay, it's I was talking to a Glaswegian friend of mine. The other day I referred to the side of Scotland from the educated side. And I was glad I was 1000 miles away from him, because I got a smack in the face for that one incident. Yeah, in Scotland, and I went to school, I went to a good private school, hard working parents put me through private school. And after the few years, the inevitable few years of dicking about as a teenager, and a few years spent after that in doing some other work that we'll talk about offline another time, I got into the corporate world, and I spent 25 years in big corporate. And when I say big corporate, I mean some of the biggest names that you have heard of working for and with the real global behemoths and had an incredibly successful career doing everything from implementing process optimization strategies for government, to running the international arm of a blue chip consulting business. You name it, I did it. And then three and a half years ago, and this is the point of the story, I guess three and a half years ago, I found myself sitting on the window ledge of a London hotel room about to kill myself. And my story. And the reason I'm so keen to talk to you and to your listeners, and to anybody who listened to me is that I realized looking back now that I spent 25 years chasing somebody else's view of success. And I realized now that it wasn't my own view of success, and what I'm keen to do is to help people to get to a point and to understand what success really means to them and not for them to the pitfalls and traps that I did.
Mat Lock
Yeah, sure. I mean, I'll say it's very powerful story. And when she has only three and a half years ago, she's still relatively fresh. I imagine. From your perspective, it's not that long ago. I mean, so let's before we before we get to that moment of sitting on the window ledge, and we don't need to dwell on that particular man, because I think we can simply refer to that as I would imagine the turning point. But let's just take a step back into the corporate world, because I think there's a lot of people who and I, you know, as you know, I have a corporate background, I think it's a lot of people who are working in the corporate space and sort of caught up in all of the trappings that it has to offer. I mean, I can speak for myself, you know, I work for a great company, actually, for the last 10 years of my corporate career, and I was paid very well. And I had a lot of autonomy, and I had great people around me, it's a great culture. But without question, I fell into that trap of the more I earned, the more I spent, the more and more lavish my lifestyle was, the more I expected even almost a sense of entitlement, in terms of all of the contractual bits and pieces that I would get. And yeah, the further up the food chain, I went, it seems the more I consumed. But that's not unusual. I'm certainly I was an expat in Singapore at the time. So I spent over 10 years, based in Asia, and I was surrounded by experts. Yeah, living a reasonably extravagant life and lifestyle that you're experienced to is at a similar story.
Simon Stephen
To some degree, I think the difference perhaps, was that so I have a view that any organization you go and work for, where you are, remunerated on the back of achieving targets. On the back of competitive wins in high stress, high paced corporate environments, you are automatically putting yourself into a position where you are day to day, you become obsessed effectively, you become obsessed with hitting the target and over achieving the target hitting the bonus kickers and the various other things. And depending on the industry. And depending on the company you're working for, in in large number of cases, depending on the bosses you work for, you find yourself getting very drawn into a lifestyle that really isn't real. I've said this on numerous occasions since but I realized looking back how much more time I spent with colleagues than I did with my family. I spent more of my life with my colleagues than I did with my wife and my children and my friends, and so on. And those people are caught in that same thing you are and you're being you're trying to be successful together, you're trying to achieve your targets together. But at the same time, there's a competitive, there's a competitive friction between you at the same time, ensure that the matter is, the large majority of people you work with, wouldn't hesitate to stab you in the back if they thought the opportunity was there to make a quick buck or to do better than you. They might not say to your face, but they they will do that. And I want to stay at this point. I'm not suggesting every business is the evil empire. Now, I simply saying to those people who who know I'm simply saying to those people who are thinking of going into what I would call that fast paced, ultra stressful, ultra competitive environment, all for people who are in there now. Or for the loved ones of those people who are in there. Now. There are warning signs that you are on a negative spiral. And I didn't spot them. I spent 25 years chasing the cars, the houses the holidays, the the watches, the clothes and all the other things I had an amazing lifestyle, traveled everywhere business or first class, the best holidays, the best hotels expense accounts that are bigger than most people's annual salaries, you know, serious money. What I didn't realize is that while this was going on, I was becoming more and more obsessed with myself and less and less caring about anybody or anything. And by the time I came around to a point where when I got to that hotel room, my wife had been telling me for years that she didn't like me. She didn't find me an attractive person. She didn't like what I'd become that I wasn't the man she'd met. My kids didn't want to hang out with me. They found me obnoxious, I was rude. I was irritable. I was never there. When I was there. I was cynical about everything. They were doing everything anybody else was doing. I part of my recovery since my attempt on my life, was to sit down with friends and family and ask them what my behavior was like what they thought about me. And it was shocking. There's nothing quite like hearing your wife turn around and say Geez, you know what, for three years, I made love to you with my eyes closed because I just hated that. Have you being in bed with me? Or there's nothing quite like that when your friends turn around and say the only reason we went to the pub with you The only reason we hung out with you is because we liked your wife.
Mat Lock
How confronting now?
Simon Stephen
Oh, yeah. And the worst bit was much like the frog in cold water frog in boiling water analogy. Yeah. All of this was complete news to me. I thought I was doing great. I was being Mr. Successful I was providing we had the cars we had the life we had all these things. I was drinking a lot more. I would. I was now on prescription medication. I was for painkillers. I had started to buy medication from street dealers. I was going flying around the world. I remember flying into Minneapolis, late one night getting in there by midnight before going to my hotel. I'm asking the taxi driver to find me a street dealer so I can buy Vicodin. Yeah. And all these things were going on. But if someone confronted me, my wife, my children, my friends, and they said, Hey, you know, you're being an ass. You're being horrible. I become indignant. I become belligerent and go, how can you say that? What are you talking about? I look at look, look how successful I've been looking at look at how much I'm providing completely missing the point of what true happiness is and what real success is. And that's now why I'm shouting from the rooftops to try and stop people ever getting down taking that that awful spiral I did. That that's my vocation now.
Mat Lock
Which is admirable. And I appreciate you for it. And I'd say he was simply looking through as I did have time. So I looking through the lens that we'd been trained to look through, through a societal stigma, almost growing up that success does look like that you get the bigger and bigger house, you have the cars you have the as you say, I was providing, I mean, we're cavemen. And so, number one role in life is, you know, protect family and provide. That's the way we're wired. And that can be overpowering. What usually is often the Yeah, absolutely. So we were so you were simply looking through a different lens or lens that you'd been taught to look through. But thankfully, I mean, unfortunately, it took you some very, very hard lessons in life to, to acknowledge, in fact, actually, maybe I need to look through a different lens. But did
Simon Stephen
I refer to I refer to what you were talking about it I call it the illusion of corporate success, I'm sure. It's an illusion that is thrust upon you, by your bosses, by your peers. I remember one. I remember one occasion where there was a rumor going around that I was seeing somebody that I'd started in an affair with someone I was working with. And it wasn't true. But there was a rumor going around and I got taken in by my boss and I was trying to close this big deal with a with a global bank. And it was a 60 $70 million deal or something. And I was taken into the office and he said to me, Hey, listen, is there any truth in these rooms? And I said, No, never said, I've never told us there's no truth. And he said, Because you know what? If you feel that you need to have an extramarital affair, if that's going to help you and give you the edge and get you to contract signature point, then we're happy to provide an alibi if your wife gets suspicious. Wow.
Mat Lock
Yeah. All right now, you know, I thought that the time that they were gonna have to pay for you
Simon Stephen
know, and that's, that's, that's brutal. I mean, we could we could talk about these big corporate events I'd go to in Vegas now the places where there'd be strippers and coke, and there'd be all kinds of things rattling around and they wouldn't be eyes would be averted to what was going on. And what happens on the bus stays on the bus. And basically, the more that people did wrong, the more the bosses would have a little bit of leverage on them at some point in the future versus whatever. It may be absolutely brutal, brutal stuff. Yeah. brutal. And but if I look at that event, in particular that had been taken into the office and told I could read provide an alibi at the time. I didn't bat an eyelid Matt. I remember going, thanks. That's cool. That's, that's good. It's good to know. Yeah. And I look back now and go, I was so warped, I was so twisted, and messed up and consumed by it. I actually didn't see that for what it was, which was completely unethical. And completely the opposite of the way that an organization should look after its employees.
Mat Lock
It's interesting, isn't it, how consuming that environment. As you say, how it walks, your normal values, the way you look at things the way you justify things yourself and make it okay. Or at least soften it down to make it pal Trouble said that you can do it and be okay with it. Yeah, interesting and to have to be in, in a business environment where the culture supports that. I mean, that's just toxic, isn't it absolutely toxic,
Simon Stephen
it is toxic. And for me, it's worse than toxic. It's, it is downright dangerous. You've got, there's still I'm gonna, I'm going to take a bit of a sidebar, there's this, we live in a world where we are becoming better and better about talking about subjects which used to be taboo. We talk about quality, we talk about racism, we talk about whatever it may be gender identification, we talk about all these things. But there's still a huge stigma attached to men talking about their mental health, particularly with regards to suicide. And there's also still a huge stigma attached within any corporate environment of male or female or anyone showing weakness to show weakness in a corporate environment, particularly in an environment of this competitive and target driven. You you're not putting yourself in the best in the best light with regards to your bosses and, and your peers and everyone else that someone said something to me a while ago, which is always sort of stuck with me. You're killing yourself working for organization that will replace you in a week, if you die. Sure. And when you think of it in that context, and I started doing a lot of investigation to this part of my recovery was initially looking into myself, but I then started to look into industry as a whole talking to former colleagues, talking to friends, and then spreading the net wider to understand whether I was unique in the decline in the spiral or whether this was actually common, and it's terrifyingly common. That you put yourself in a position where you are being led by the nose, you've been led by money by your bosses, they do not have your best interests at heart. They have shareholder value at heart they have achieving their own targets are hard they have getting the bigger Mercedes or whatever it may be themselves out hard. You are just not important. Unless you are providing if you're doing your number, if you're signing the contracts, then they will treat you give you anything you want. But this second, you don't do that. The one turns out I remember flying into India. I flown to India to see clients. I was there for a week.
Mat Lock
And
Simon Stephen
I arrived we got taken by limo from the airport to the hotel and put a client's where their expense account was through the roof. First night we were there. We drank the place Dr. Champagne 12 of us I think it was drank it dry. I mean, I mean it hideous matsya Bay, we're doing champagne towers, we're pouring champagne in the top, the hotels coming in and they're saying, Do we want companions? Is there anything else we might need to make our cleaning more enjoyable? I mean, you know, pretty much anything goes right. And I looked out the window I went out one point I was a spoke about that. And I went outside and I stayed on this balcony I looked down and right below me literally on the other side of the road 50 yards away from the ground floor. was a slum just houses made with corrugated roofs, you know, 1000s and 1000s of people.
Mat Lock
Just the other side,
Simon Stephen
again. Yes. And I look back now and go. I blew I wasted more money that evening that that entire community will see in a lifetime.
Mat Lock
Absolutely.
Simon Stephen
But at the time, because you're part of this because it's just what you do. It's part of the corporate lifestyle. you justify it. And it's and it's awful. And I think it's terrifyingly, I think it's dangerous. As I said, I think it gives people particularly youngsters going into that industry. It gives them completely the wrong view about how they can and should approach life in order to feel genuinely fulfilled and genuinely happy.
Mat Lock
Yeah, no 100% and I'm glad that you have Banstead at the side and I hope that they I'm sure you will be a conduit for helping others to to see the lights and whatnot and start to look through a different lens. But that's so I think we've got a feel for what what got you to that turning point in your life. And if you want to talk about the evening, leading up to and the way you would find yourself sitting on the windowsill and how that became the moment and Yeah, please. I mean, if you'd rather not support the shells, of course. No, I
Simon Stephen
think I think it's really important to I think it's really important. So and I've it's been interesting in this in in this journey that the number of people that have said to me, you know, do you feel comfortable sharing all this stuff and you're not feeling You know, you're going around, you're confessing all you know, you don't have to prostrate yourself to the world and tell them all your sins. But actually, I feel like I do because the more people that like me to do it, the more that other people will feel they can and it breaks down that stigma. So if I'm the guy that has to stand up and confess their sins all the time, then I'll do it if it helps other people I had had the weekend before I'd had a the mother of all rounds and my wife. And we'll talk about my wife towards the end, because you have met you know, this situation, and it's important to talk about that as well. Yeah, absolutely. I'd had I'd had the mother of all rounds with her. I'd flown down to London. busy week of work, usual thing, 1718 1920 hour days, going out at night to the clients drinking too much still doing by this point, I'm knocking back. I have no idea. I mean, at one point, you know, I'm regularly taking a couple of Tramadol every few hours, just to keep myself ticking over and keep this low harm in my head.
Mat Lock
And
Simon Stephen
I had come back, everything was the contract that I was trying to negotiate had gone wrong, or there was a problem with it. And I'd had a voicemail from my wife that was particularly nasty, and I deserved it, I hasten to add and went into my room. It was 1135 at night, I was staying in the hotel on Park plane, I won't give you the name of it. But it begins with H and ends with Elton. And I had I checked my emails 1135 and the next thing I was aware of was a siren like an ambulance or police car or something and I kind of snapped awake if you want to call it that and realize that I was sitting I was perched on the window ledge with my legs outside the window ledge and I stood leaning forward. So literally my my ass there was a there was that the crack of the window line on on my arm. And that was it. That was the difference between me and being 10 floors down the pavement. And I kind of got a bit of a shock and I let back in through the window and fell backwards, lay on the floor for a while, got up, looked around, and I had folded all my clothes. I had written a letter to my wife and children confessing everything, all my misdemeanors, all my mistakes, my shame, my guilt, my sorrow, everything. I had left money for the housekeeper. Because clearly I realized that she or he were going to have to pick up my stuff in the morning and I wasn't going to be there and so on. And it was 10 past one in the morning. And I had lost an hour and a half of my life and it just disappeared. I don't do not remember it at all. And the only thing I remember was sitting on the edge of the bed and starting to cry. And I sobbed and sobbed and sobbed and sobbed and I don't know how long for but I was sort of in the fetal position and curled up in a ball. And I remember this thing in my head that said, You've got two choices, you can either go back to the window, and go through with it. Or you can sort this out. But you can't keep doing what you're doing. You're going to lose everything you're going to lose your family, your friends, your everything you've worked for, or thought you'd work for. And the void those people it's a bit of a cliche, the voice in your head, I'm not going to say it was a voice I recognized it was it was simply cognisance. But the voice in my head immediately sets me just go back to the window and give up just to just give up. So I did, I walked back to the window and I started to put my legs outside the window again and I in any way I can describe it was there was no real emotion to me, it was just, I can't do this, I just cannot go, I can't imagine how to go through the pain of trying to get over this or recover from this or be better than this. It just seemed like too, too much of a too difficult to task. I've fallen too far. And being London, I had another siren again in the distance as you do every 30 seconds in London. And this thought went through my head which said God, you make a hell of a mess for the ambulance crew. And, again, it was just it was just this little thought that went through my head and it was enough for me to go well if I'm thinking about that, if I'm caring enough to think what an ambulance crew would have to do to pick me up off the ground. And I've clearly got some goodness in me and I've clearly got some heart in me. And maybe I should stop. So I kind of took myself back inside. And that was the seminal moment. That was the moment where I went, Okay. If I was going to turn my life, right, if I was going to change this, what would I have to do and so began this extraordinary but very hard not denying it's I'm not saying it's easy. But this extraordinary journey that I've been on for the last three and a half years to completely 180 my life. But had I not got to that point. And I'm not advocating getting sitting on a window is to anybody, by the way. But had I not gotten to that point? I don't think I fear that I may have been stuck in that trap forever. And I would go to my grave, probably in my 60s have some stress related disease. With nothing, no wife, no kids, no family, no friends, no, nothing. all the trappings all the lifestyle, but none of the love and, you know, for me, the journey I'm on now is the right one, not the one I wasn't.
Mat Lock
Yeah, look, I appreciate you sharing. Before. I'm really interested to hear what was your first step literally. But before I decided it was dawning on me listening to your story. That isn't how the subconscious, you know, I guess from childhood. We hear sirens. And it's exciting, isn't it? It's a it's some sort of trigger for an urge all you want to see it what is it is an ambo foreign visit? And where are they coming from? And it's all very exciting. And it's a strange, interesting the both times that was the trigger that brought you back to a moment of lucidity. And especially the first time because you say you lost an hour, an hour and a half of your life literally a bit. you'd gone into autopilot. You were functioning. You were able to write a letter. Yeah. And obviously wouldn't dream of asking the details of that activity. When you read that letter. Was it accurate? Like in your in your autopilot moment? Had you been really honest? And Frank? Yeah, you've written and yeah, for sure not to share.
Simon Stephen
I still have it. I still have the last time I laminated It is the only one and only time I've ever used a laminator in my life. I laminated because I want to say, yeah, yeah, it was painfully honest. It was painfully honest. It was it was brutal. Somebody said to me months ago, didn't You're being too hard on yourself. Do you know, you know, you were working? Yeah, you weren't asked and you were doing all these things. But you can maybe be too hard on yourself an all I have to do is reread the letter, and my behaviors towards my wife, and towards friends and family and to strangers, and to strangers as well was horrific. I didn't care about their feelings, I didn't care about their emotions, I care purely about myself. I did whatever I needed to do to get whatever it was I wanted, or to get wherever I want it to get to stuff feelings. And I would try and make up for them for my behaviors by throwing money at the situation by buying a present by saying sorry, by the biggest lunches of flowers you've ever seen in your life by whatever it may be. And my and you asked about my first step afterwards, the thing is the first step Believe it or not, the next day was went into work. I walked into work. And I've described it as walking in there, but it's like I had a pair of bullshit extra bullshit spectacles on suddenly I could see it for what it was. And I don't know if you ever seen that film The devil's advocate with with Keanu Reeves, saying that way suddenly begins to realize he sees their actual demon faces. I'm not suggesting I was surrounded by demons. But suddenly I was seeing people who they weren't going Hold on. You're not my friend. You probably couldn't even tell me my wife's name. You can probably tell me my middle name. You're not a friend. You wouldn't be there. If I fell down the street now to cardiac you, wouldn't it I left work early that day, I flew back up to Scotland sat with my wife and how like a baby. And she did the best thing she could possibly have done. Is she went no way mate. Ah, you don't get to say sorry and walk away from this one. You don't get to say I'm crying. I feel so sorry for you darling. I'm What a shame. Here I am helping you. She said, This is going to take you years to fix. This is gonna you've done so much. You've hurt me and the kids and our friends and our family so much. This is not going to be a quick fix. So he said if you think you're going to say sorry to me, and we're all going to be okay in a week, not going to happen. And it was the best thing she could have done and she said something to me that I've never forgotten. She said the sincerest form of apology is a consistent change of behavior. I need to see a consistency in Your behavior change. And so I'm not going to forgive you right now. No, she didn't say that. She said, I forgive you. She said, I'm not going to forget it. And it's going to take me a long time to forget it. And no, we are not fine. And we are going to stop telling people, we're fine, because we're not. You have broken us as a family, you've broken us and we've got work to do. And that single conversation, again, you talk about that voice in your head, that moment, that voice again, that little demon that sits on the shoulder, he's going this is this is too hard, may you'll never get this done. Just just walk away from them, leave them go back to London go back to and it was honestly like a devil, an angel on his shoulder and the devil is going, this is too hard. You don't want this, you can't do this, this is going to be a nightmare. Luckily, the other voice turns around and goes, you got to stick with it. You've you've got to make this work. So we started talking about well, what are we going to do and the first step was realizing that I could never stay in that corporate world, I had to step away from it completely, do something totally different. And I'm not suggesting everybody can just sell their house and move abroad. I'm not being glib about it. But we were lucky enough that we were able to say okay, let's sell up. This opportunity came up to buy this hill farm here and grow olives and grapes and all these other things. And I thought I can't get any more different than what I've been
Mat Lock
doing. lately.
Simon Stephen
stuffing, let's go for it. This is do it. It was it was absolute caution to the wind. Let's just go for it.
Mat Lock
And next thing was that decision take?
Simon Stephen
Oh, well, the decision on the Hill Farm took me a while because obviously we had to we had to sort of, as I said, this opportunity came up with that took a few weeks. The decision to that I'd have to leave industry was that day? Yep, it was I cannot survive another day. Yeah. More importantly, at the time, it wasn't just I can't survive, it was our marriage, our life of we cannot survive as a whole. And something very interested in a loan, which I think is very pertinent to your listeners is that I spent quite a bit of time saying to my wife and my family, I'm going to change for you, I'm going to change for you. I'm going to be a better Dad, I'm going to be a better husband, I'm going to be but I know my wife would turn around and go, don't make this about me. Don't make this about the kids don't make this about anyone else make this about you. You've got to want to change, you've got to be the one that makes the transformation. If you're doing it for my sake, you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
Mat Lock
Yeah, I think I was gonna ask what was what your deep down motivation was? And yes, he often felt remorseful towards your wife, the way you treated them genuinely. Yeah, I've never was that but was that your underlying real motivation is a great reason. But was it the what was the real motivator for you? To make significant change to your long
Simon Stephen
clap? I would be lying. I would love to turn around to you and do the thing that you you'd expect and say, Oh, yeah, it was it was that I feeling that I had a responsibility to myself. It's bullshit. I was desperate. I wanted to keep my wife. I wanted to keep my kids. I wanted to keep my friends. And I felt so guilty. So shamed. so embarrassed of everything I'd done. That that became a catalyst, that it was the thing that gave me an initial driver to start the journey. It was a bit like a jumpstart on a car. It was a defib. Because I wasn't I didn't know who I was. At that point. I hadn't actually never really discovered who Simon was. So to say, Yeah, I was looking for myself when I was doing it all for me would be a lie. I used the defense of my guilt and my shame and my desperation to keep my marriage together as the thing to jumpstart me to make the journey now as I've progressed, I've discovered who I am, I've discovered what matters to me. I discovered what makes me happy, what doesn't make me happy, I have been able to change the guilt and the shame and use it as a lesson. So to think about conversations I have with people or decisions I'm making, okay, where have I seen something like this before? And how did I react before and how did that end up? Well, you know, I know that's the wrong way to go. So what if I try the other way? And it starts to become, it's a bit Pavlov's dog, Pavlov's dog to start with ring Bell, get cheese, you know, you're you simply have to keep repeating mantras to yourself until it becomes muscle memory. So, I would say to myself, you know, somebody would be coming around for dinner, and I would say I'm going to make sure that everything I say joined in it is kind of everything I say during dinners carrying me is ridiculous. I used to have a note card and notes with the saying, kind, caring, loving, and so on. Now it's default. Now, when I'm having dinner with people, it's just me. And it turns out actually, I really like it. I really like being nice. I really like being kind and loving and caring. And you know what the most amazing but as you get so much more back, if you give that out, you get so much more back. So it becomes this wonderful thing where you just bounce off one another. And Matt, you and I have never met, and we will do in November when I'm over in AWS. But we've never met yet. Both of us have approached our conversation from how can we help one another? How can we talk and immediately it works, there's no conflict, there's no nasty and so on. That initial that initial thing that got me onto that road, though, was not that it was shame. And I think the one of the key messages and all of this is I want to say to anybody who's either in this now, or recognizes some of the signs that I've talked about whether it be addiction to prescription meds, or alcohol, or OCD percent or secretive behaviors, or having two phones and all the other little signals and signs that there's things going on, particularly signs like you know, your wife saying, by the way, I only sleep with you because I feel I have to it's a pretty big signal that if anyone going through that, I am not saying your recovery is going to be easy. It's not it is going to be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life. But three and a half years zen, I've never smiled like this in my life before I never realized what genuine joy and happy was. So what I'll say is you've you've got to do it, you've got to get through that hard bit to get to the good bit the other side and, you know, anything I can do in that regard to help people I will map you know, we've talked about this.
Mat Lock
Yeah, absolutely. And similarly, it's not always the Hollywood fairytale ending as Hollywood would have us believe it or not. So I mean, if you bring us to fast forward to December last year, for example. And there was another sort of major event in your life if you happen to share that with Yeah, yeah. And the storyline would normally be that yes, you know, I found myself I change the way am I change my environment and you know, made amends with my wife and my kids and we live happily ever after.
Simon Stephen
What if there is a happily ever after, but there's, there's and this is you're absolutely right is not the Hollywood ending. I have a better relationship with my children now than I've ever had. My kids are older. They're 25 and 22. They have their own lives, but I have a closer relationship with them than I've ever had. I've wheedled out those people that are not my friends. And those that are I have a close relationship with them than ever. And I always have a close relationship with my wife that I've ever had. But in December, she sat down with me, beginning of December, and she said, I am so proud of you. I'm so proud of your transformation. I'm so proud of how you've changed. I'm so proud of the effort you've put in the work you've put in. And we'll talk about the health and fitness in a minute because that's a vital element to it. And he said, I love you. She said, I love you. I love being your wife. I love you being my husband, she said, but I don't want to be with you anymore. Should I dedicated everything to you. She like gave you everything. She said, I spent all those years managing you dealing with you coping with you having to accept you putting up with everything. And I asked you to change I asked you to transform, I asked you for consistent change. And you demonstrated it said you've done all these things. And you are a remarkable human beings we're getting to that place. But she said, but I've never had a life for me. said I've never done things for me. And he said and whilst I love you, I don't want to be with you anymore. And Matt, it was like a dagger in my heart. It was the the carpet being pulled under my feet from under my feet. It was this thing and immediately that voice that little demons going, huh, told you all this work. You've put in all these years, you made all this effort, and she screws you at the last minute and all the rest of it. And I was hurt and upset, and I cried and I was broken. But you know, the most remarkable thing that happened is that I was angry. I wasn't even angry. I was broken for a day. I was broken for a day. something clicked in my head and it said the first thing you're gonna do some is you're going to be kinder to her. You're not going to raise your voice not gonna be argumentative. You're not going to be disruptive. You're not gonna be horrible. You're not going to revert to type like you would have a few years ago, you're going to be kind. The second thing you're going to do Simon is you're going to try and sit from our perspective. And when I did that, I went, God, no, she deserves it. God knows she deserves an opportunity to have a life for herself. I've put her through marry hell. And, of course, I'm going to feel crappy when I hear she's met someone else, of course, I'm going to find it difficult if I see her in the future, and she's as beautiful as she is. But I could not wish happiness on anybody else more than I wish it for her. She deserves an opportunity to be happy and to have the life she wants to do the things she wants to do. And what she does, as more than anything for me is for me to support that. She needs me to go, you know what the least I can do, everything you've done for me, is to support you in that new adventure. And in that new journey, and yeah, it stinks. And it hurts and I go to bed at night, Matt I miss her? Of course I do. And I look around the farm here, and there's all the stuff we created and dead together. But every single day in the last five months since I happen on the fourth of December, not once not once have I raised my voice being unkind, Swan cold or name? Nothing, not once and for me. That's a sign of progress. Yeah, that's a sign. I'm on the right road.
Mat Lock
I was gonna ask what what does that mean? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, I was gonna ask, what does that mean to you? What do you what do you take away from that? The way you've responded to that knowing how the old you would have responded, versus the real, you know, the actual you that was always suppressed by all the trappings of the life that we thought made us successful? Yeah, how to make you feel?
Simon Stephen
I don't know. Are you allowed to say you're proud of yourself? I am proud of myself. Absolutely. I have moments now. I have I have moments. You know, there are times where I do I want to I want to text her at midnight. And girl, please change your mind or beg her to come back. And I did at the beginning. And the first few weeks afterwards. You know, I sent some pretty emotional messages to her saying please reconsider, please change your mind. But then the morning I'd always it was always late at night, that would happen in the morning, you'd wake up and go, come on, Simon, you got to support her, Hey, you got to be nice. You got to be kind and all these kind of things. And then you do the thing. Or I did the thing that all that a lot of men who are going through a divorce or who are left? Do they start going right? Well, I'll show her I'll be more successful, I'll be bigger and better and faster and smarter and more sexy than I've ever been in my life. And the next time she sees me, she'll regret it so much. And then I went now that's a stupid, that's just really stupid. Actually, why am I doing that? And then what slowly happened was that this new me, the real me kicked in and said you know what, the best thing you can do is to be happy for and keep doing what you're doing. So I have a rigorous rigorous I have a what I call a religious exercise regime every day. I do the same group of exercises. I do tweeners cardio, 20 minutes, swimming 20 minutes this every single day, and it's hugely important to me, hugely important, and I love it. It gives me a buy. Don't do it. You know this better than anyone. If I go to bed at night, and I haven't done my thing during the day. I don't sleep properly. I feel annoyed with myself. It's like something's missing it almost.
Mat Lock
Oh, it
Simon Stephen
drives me crazy. I've I've found myself getting up at two o'clock in the morning. They're 20 minutes in the gym. Seriously. It's that and you know, read it's releasing endorphins is releasing all these wonderful chemicals. And it's and it's magical. So I went well, hold on. I'm not doing that because I want to make her jealous. I'm doing it because I want it because I like it. Yeah. And I thought about Okay, so where do I want to go away this year? And I went, well, hold
Mat Lock
on, you know,
Simon Stephen
I can go anywhere I like now. I can go anywhere I want to holiday and I can start looking the good things. And hey, if I want to watch Captain America at midnight, I can and I don't have to feel bad about it. That's okay to watch Marvel, and all these things. And and for me, the way it feels is that there's been a massive shift in my head. Because that wasn't me four years ago. Four years ago, I as I said I would have been an absolute monster I would never physically hit I want to be absolutely clear on that for any of your listeners think that I'm brutal. It's never It was never physical. But in many ways, the emotional is worse, much worse. I would have been shouting, screaming, angry, argumentative, disruptive. I'd have probably gone to the pub drunk too much done this gone away for a few days, said bad things about her turn around to our friends and said what a evil wicked woman she was. That's almost certainly what would have happened. So to not do That she look at it from this sounds cliche, but looking for this better than I love for if I'm going to demonstrate that I love her, I don't have to be with her to show her, I love her, I can show her I love her. Even if we're not together, I can show her I love her by being the best I can be the best version of myself, and helping her and supporting her and being the best version of herself. And so at the end of the day, I feel good about him that I feel genuinely good about it.
Mat Lock
And yeah, it's interesting, I'm sitting, as we're chatting, I'm thinking about Jimmy demonstrates a very high level of emotional intelligence, which is often missing from so many relationships. And certainly historically, mine also had Alright, we've got a few years under our belt, we learned some lessons. Were a bit wiser as the years go by, but nonetheless, it warms my heart in many ways to hear how you've handled that how, how it affected you and to hear that you want you really genuinely only want the best thing is your wife. The very best thing I'm interested in your your your kids. I mean, they're adults now. It's gonna be your kids, of course, but you know, they've mid 20s very much adults. Have you talked to them in detail about the details of your, you know, the last 22 years? Or the 25 years before? Yeah, change? Yeah. Have you gone through that into? Yeah, yeah, willing to share more and not the details, but how have they communicated that to you how it was for them. And of course, how it is now the difference for them. So because I'm conscious, we'll have lots of lots of parents listening to this.
Simon Stephen
It's a really, really important part of it. For me, and and i would say for anybody going through this, facing so much face your responsibilities, yours sounds like another cliche, but you need to understand it from other people's perspective, you need to understand it and be empathic to what they were going through in order to get a, I suppose a better vision, a better version of the true version of what you were like, because sometimes the things you hear that belligerent, maybe your brain wants to kick you to go Come on, I wasn't that kind of mean that, really. But when you've got a bunch of people telling you the same things, I'll give you an example, great friend of my great great friend of mine, who said to me during this the few months that followed my suicide attempt, he said, You know, he said the number of occasions where I would turn around to my wife if I was meeting you for a drink or dinner. And I would turn around my wife and say, God, I don't want to go, I really don't want to see him. But she would say no, come on, you've got to maybe he'll maybe he'll be okay, this time. Maybe he won't just talk about himself. Maybe he won't just talk about now, here I am, ironically, just talking about myself. But when you hear that from your supposedly one of your closest friends, that's tough, man.
Mat Lock
That's hard to be really tough.
Simon Stephen
And what is done is it it's gone. You take that lesson you go Okay, so how do I, how are changes going forward. So if new friendships that I've made over here, the efforts that I make now, to demonstrate how grateful I am to them being in my life, the efforts I make to show to them, that I will be the first stay in contact that I will be the one who will remember the birthdays that I'll do all these kind of things. And I know that some of it is having to write it down. I'm not saying this is all just automatic. Yes, it's a work in progress. But I'm going above and beyond. Because I want these people to understand how much I appreciate them. More importantly, perhaps, is I don't ever want to hear anyone ever again saying God I don't want to see silent. I just don't want to have dinner with the guy. He's such an asshole. I want people to go Yeah, we want him in our life because he brings happiness and joy and all these things. And she had the greatest irony about all this for me and this is this is for me. It's laughable. My wife was always very and still is very spiritual. She got into yoga years and years ago and really got very involved in the spirituality of the spiritual side of things. And I was just Mr. cynical. What the hell are you doing? Why do you sit want to sit cross legged under a bail Bob Trey and Harmon do blinging sound bowls and just sticks and loud What are you going you know everybody always people going off and join these communes they just need to get a job on they're paying taxes but I mean I was just that horrible guy that says cynical stuff. And she has to say to me things like you know what you give out to the universe you get back. If you give out love you receive love. Nice to dismiss it out of hand. Now totally get it come pleakley an utterly get it. The joy I get from giving and helping and talking. And the reason for starting into cedar, which is not a business. It's, it's an idea more than anything. But the reason for doing that is because every so often I'll get a phone call or an email or a text and I say, Hey, listen, I heard you speaking at such and such a place where I saw something you'd written and, you know, it reminded me a man, I went back and spoke to my wife. And we talked for the first time in years, and actually, I'm going to get out of the company, and I'm going to go and start doing something for myself and my wife and I go to counseling. It's those moments that give me more satisfaction, more joy, more belief and value than anything I've ever done previously in my life. And I, at some point, I'm going to have to sit with my beautiful soon to be ex wife and say, dammit, you're right. You're right. It turns out that what you give back what you give out, you get back and I
Mat Lock
hate telling you, you're right, but you're right. You can also just top it off by saying, Well, why didn't you tell me?
Simon Stephen
Yeah, yeah. Why did you keep the secret for so long? I can't believe you let me get so bad without telling me.
Mat Lock
Yeah, look, I it's
Simon Stephen
I you know, I'm still not. I'm not a meditator. I do breathing exercises as part of my, my daily sessions, I do my cardio, I do my weights and all that kind of stuff. And then big healthy breakfast, and I do breathing exercises, actually. There's a wonderful organization called the natural edge company, which is run by former US SBS special boat service guy, Simon Jeffries. And they do resilience training, redundant resilience courses. And I don't know if you're aware of this, but some of the best breathing exercises are actually advocated by the navy seals. They're trained in the Navy SEALs, right. And it's about the breathing exercise about it's about stopping panic. So it's helping the rising panic when you're underwater and you can't get a you can't get breath and I know you probably dived as well, and it's stopping at blind panic. So I use those same deep breathing exercises. I'm not a meditator, I'm not sitting cross legged, floating across astral planes. I'm not communing with with our beings nothing's. But I'm damned if I'm going to be cynical about that anymore. I'm not going to be cynical about that anymore.
Mat Lock
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. whatever form it takes for an individual. It's fine. Yeah, but yeah, but you've obviously had the experience now that it any form of sort of meditative approach or breathing technique can be so hugely beneficial. For a wide variety of environments, even it's just a daily practice to, to be more relaxed to to clear the mind. All of those things be more in touch with yourself. It was I mean, I remember growing up, I was born skeptic in many ways. And I remember years ago, I for no reason, and that I think was the most frustrating part of I suddenly became anxious about the thought of flying Two days later, after me getting in a plane up until that point, and for sure, for the last 20 years has been like walking up or down a set of stairs or getting undetected, I don't even think. But for some reason, there was something had triggered anxiety in me that would pull up my stomach and make me nauseous. Almost. Yeah, it was just horrible, awful feeling. Anyway, my dad was a dental surgeon for his whole career, about 3000 years, I think. And back in the day, they taught hypnosis as part of the dental training. And I remember him saying, I was sharing with him what I was experiencing. And he said, Well, if you want to try hypnosis now, as you know, until then, I've been very, sort of brushed it off that way as a lead of mumbo jumbo BS. However, the difference was, and one of the reasons it worked was because I wanted it to work so badly because I was so frustrated by this newfound anxiety around air travel, which is ridiculous. Yeah. And I'll never forget the first time he might be within 10 minutes. And he said it was no, it was nothing. sort of out of this university, it was just in the lounge room. And lastly, I think around 10 minutes in total, and if we get that sense of feeling my arms sinking to the couch, it felt like if something out of a movie where you know, I was literally sitting here totally in control section, and that was the that was very beneficial for me, because I remembered and you know, I'm a little bit of control freak in many ways. I in as much as I was, I remember thinking in that moment, I could open my eyes anytime I want. Like, you know, he doesn't have control over and so yeah, yeah. implicitly, but still I found myself. I remember it's clear as day thinking out while I could open my eyes, I want it. But I don't want to Yeah, it's kind of nice. And for sure that resolved the travel topic, within to 10 minute session done. I never thought about it even to this day. In fact, I fall asleep when I get on plane, I sit down, I fall asleep, we take off and when the plane levels out, and the seatbelt sign goes off, I have my eyes and I smile, because I realized what happened in that over 20 years ago. And I don't even think about it. It's hilarious the power of the subconscious. But for me, that was, yeah, that was the beginning of understanding that this American, all of this, if you open yourself to it, and make yourself available to it, it can be hugely beneficial, if you want it to be. And remember,
Simon Stephen
if you open to it, if you're absolutely right, if you make yourself available to is Yes, perfect, perfect, perfect expression. For me, the breathing bit was initially about to your dad ever say to you engage brain before opening mouth. My dad used to say
Mat Lock
how many 100k a day. Yeah, as I'm
Simon Stephen
engaged brain before opening mouth, I used the breathing as my mechanism to teach me to engage brain before opening mouth. In other words in and when it when a situation arose, whether it be a conversation with a boy for at that point, obviously was still with me. Conversation with anybody, whatever the situation was, that will be the thing that would go a cake, step backwards, go somewhere else. Sit down, breathe for a few minutes. And it was really extraordinary profound, how different my decision process would be having done some breathing versus not doing a one way wasn't an iPod have knee jerk impulsive responses the other way would be more measured more calm, and infinitely wiser. And I'd get better results out of it. And this goes back to what we're saying in the very beginning. If you do these things consistently and repeatedly, whilst it might come across as being a little bit obsessive compulsive, you know, me getting up every morning doing the same exercises day in day out might seem a little bit over the top. But it starts to become muscle memory. And I believe the brain works the same way. I've got this fundamental belief and the more I read about it, the more I believe that things like breathing exercises, when you're trying to make a decision on something, you get yourself to a point where your brain then just starts to automatically go down the more measured more calm, more wise route of decision making than the impulsive, knee jerk response. It doesn't mean that you're not fallible. And I'm not saying I'm perfect in any way, shape, or form. Anyone listen to this guy, my God is this guy think he is he's acting like a guru. I'm not at all, I am nowhere near perfect. And my friends and others would probably tell you though, that I still got a long way to go. But the journey is so enjoyable. It's so enjoyable, finding out all this new stuff about myself and going outside, you know, I'm actually a bit wiser than I thought and actually quite a nice bloke. And actually I'm quite good at remembering people's birthdays, or remember whatever they're all these things I'm discovering about myself. And and it's been remarkable. And this is why again, why the everyday athletes but and why we're so keen to talk to you. Because everything you do, whether it be the bag games, or everyday athletes is about how you can be the best version of yourself. It's how you can use a combination of your health and fitness, nutrition, mental your mental ability, how you train yourself, how you use live lessons, to become a better version of yourself to become the best version of yourself. And you know what the best version of me may still never be anything particularly special in the world. By comparison to our wars. It's night and day. It's absolutely nine day. No, absolutely. And look, I
Mat Lock
think. Yeah, like I appreciate your observation in terms of what we're trying to do. One thing that struck me was for anyone who says, Well, you still have a lot of work to do. I wonder when the last time they looked in the mirror, and reflected on themselves was, yeah, but but you're right, everything we're doing. And what you're doing is just trying to harness the human potential that we have within ourselves, and with actually on a sort of more broad level. The role we play within the societies in which we operate. Yeah, that's why the title of my book was lead by example. I forget hierarchy. Forget the business environment for a moment. I mean, we're talking here about having an impact on ourselves and everyone else with whom we come into contact and into contact doesn't even mean people that we necessarily know or or talk to people who even just observe us from afar. See what we do they, they listen to what we say, or they read what we write, and it has an impact. And that impact can be positive, or can be negative. And having awareness around that and being mindful of that. And therefore, yeah, just trying to keep our shit in a pile and be the best we can, is ultimately, what we're trying to do. Right? And if everyone says that, can you imagine if everyone did that? Oh, that way, it'd be a different world. Wouldn't it be a different panel?
Simon Stephen
I've got GM, Ralph Waldo Emerson, he made some great quotes over the years, but he's my favorite was actually on the wall of my office here. And it was it was Ralph Waldo Emerson, his definition of success. Do you know this? knows this, I read this to myself every day, excuse me looking at but it's almost also I want to read it if you'd like give me 30 seconds to laugh or to hit what is what is success to laughter to laugh often and much to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children, to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends, to appreciate the beauty to find the best in others, to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition. To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived this is to have succeeded.
Mat Lock
point I love that.
Simon Stephen
Totally. And I realized looking back now I find happy people, loving people, caring people, I find them inspiring, I find them magnetic, I want to hang out with them. I want to be inspired, but I want to get involved with the things they're getting involved with. And when I think about what I used to be, it's no wonder nobody wanted to hang out with me. Why would you want to hang out with a miserable, grumpy, selfish ass?
Mat Lock
You wouldn't? Sure.
Simon Stephen
So, you know, when I come over to as I'm coming, as you know, I'm coming up in November for from for holiday. Once again, brilliant, wonderful, lovely vacation in Australia in November, I am going to be on my own for the first time since I was 20. Something years old. Yeah, I'm going to be on my own single traveler going to Australia. And I intend to save every single moment of it. When I get where I hear people laughing. And in bars, I'm going to walk in where there's people serving on the beach, I'm going to go and sit, I'm going to absorb it. Because I know I can give the same back. I've never felt like that in my life before. So you know, go right back to the very beginning. Anybody who is feeling anybody who is feeling that they're not themselves that they're not happy that they're not questioning, or their employer is looking up to their well being at work, if they're seeing the signals of being in a depressive spiral of corporates of corporate stress, or their wife or their partner is saying to them, you're not the person I married, you're not personally liked. Ask yourself one really simple question. And is it is does the good outweigh the bad? Does the good in my life outweigh the bad? And if the answer's no, if the answer is no, that the bad outweighs the good, then you have a responsibility to yourself, not to anyone else to yourself, to make the changes necessary to make it happen. And I'm not saying it's gonna be easy. It will be the most difficult thing you've ever done. But I promise you, I am living proof and testament to the fact that it's worth it. And I will shout this from the rooftops till the day I die that I really well.
Mat Lock
Well, I appreciate what I think very wise words without question. We look forward to welcoming you here in the Yukon way this day, just two hours south of Sydney, in New South Wales, in November this year. And yeah, I love the fact that you have felt, I guess, what we're trying to do is resonated with you deeply enough that you're committing to it in the form of competing in the big games, and being a part of the the larger than that we're building out. So we're thrilled, we're stoked. I think you're we're stoked to have, yeah, stoked doing that. And then look, I'm conscious of time, if people wanted to reach out and help so I'm going to put all of the different links in the show notes. But what's the best way of getting in touch with you? Because I know there are people listening to this. And I have a couple of people in mind in particular here I'd like to suggest the connection point with you How do people reach out to you?
Simon Stephen
So I was trying to work I wanted to work out what I wanted to do career wise and there's a Portuguese word to see that means twisted, intercede effectively means and twisted. And I came up with this idea of Okay, what do I have in my life? What am I What can I what value can I give to other people and I came up with this idea of Well, I've got this incredible Hill Farm and I should make this available to people come and stay here, they can get involved in the harvest they can get involved in with the land with the community, the whole thing, they can come stay for a week or two weeks, and so on. And then someone's suggested, you know, you should go and speak, you should go and do some speaking in companies and talk to teams and encourage them to look after one another. And then what about if you actually went and spoke to the owners of the businesses about how to employ or how to instill better working practices to encourage well being within work and so on. And so this this thing has grown and intercede is the brand name so it's i n t o RC Ida. So in the November Tango, Oscar Romeo, Charlie, India, delta alpha has that for finance, www dot inter sedar.com. Or you can find me on Instagram at inter cedar and I am as you know already, and as your listeners, I hope we'll find out I will share every piece of knowledge I have, if it helps people, if I if I can encourage one single person to make a change in their life that has a positive outcome and gets them to a happy place in the future, I will provide them with anything I've learned and everything I can do, which is a beautiful thing
Mat Lock
in itself. So thank you for that. I mean, thank you for your time today. Pleasure, and really appreciated chatting. And I look forward to many, many future conversations.
Simon Stephen
I met Matt me as well, I'm so grateful for you to have me on. And I cannot wait to come out and meet you and the team in November. I am so excited about it. And yeah, I just need to get myself fit because I've seen the pictures of some of your athletes. And that that's that's a big boys in amongst that a lot of shade to get to do some
Mat Lock
work. Look, there are some big boys and girls, big strong boys and girls, I have to say that we have an we have the entire spectrum. So we have people who are just they're just finding their way getting getting into fitness for the first time. And pretty sure we have everyone on the spectrum from that point through to some pretty serious everyday athletes. But we are absolutely all about being open to all ages, all abilities and all are welcome. So we can't wait to see you smashing and us having me on. So thank you. Absolutely. Thank you
