Mat Lock
we haven’t yet addressed the fallacy of the calories. I love that i, you and I could talk all day, I know we could. And I would enjoy it very much for it to stay true to the subject when I introduced at the beginning. I know that certainly within with many, many of our audience demographics, for sure that we have a lot of personal trainers and professional coaches. And many of them have over the last year or two, I guess added to their arsenal in the form of being able to give nutrition advice. And there’s one or two companies actually from the US, whichever who have done an exceptional job of marketing themselves here. And they seem to be doing here, it seems to be a very professional program, and so on. And that’s good. However, a lot of it seems to still focus around calories, calories, calories, calories, and all calories, as we know, are not equal. But I was interested about the fallacy of the calorie that you for your book about, yeah, I would love to get your take on it.
Chef Dr. Mike
I’d love to and if folks want, you know, all the data behind what I’m going to say and a much obviously a much more in depth discussion, they can pick up a copy of the book, because it goes into that, you know, for hundreds of pages, you know, but I think it’s
a great example. And I love talking about it how something sort of had one purpose at one time, and over time shifted to become something that was never meant to be and then became embedded in the conventional wisdom. And so I’m going to start with a little bit of a history lesson, you know, what is a collar? And where did it come from. And so, a calorie, most people immediately think calorie food, it means energy, which it doesn’t one calorie equals 4.2 joules or kilojoules will be kilocalories. And it’s actually jewels that are a measure of energy. So calorie is actually a measure of heat. And it’s the amount of heat required to raise one kilogram of water one degree Celsius at one atmospheric pressure. And so immediately that just sparked our curiosity and say, Well, why we concerned about food and heat, that doesn’t really seem to make a whole lot of sense, unless we’re eating the newest diet. And we’re stuck in the Great White North with no for our lives, and weather. And that’s because the origin of the calorie has to do with the industrial revolution in the steam engine. And so as a measure that came about when people were looking at different fuels, to power a steam engine, and increase the efficiency of the engine, or obviously increase the amount of work you could do for a set amount of fuel. And for example, a kilogram of wood is not as good as a kilogram of coal, when you’re trying to fire a steam engine and have it do work. And I think everybody understands that. And when that concept was introduced, and people talk about it, and wrote scientific papers, that everybody at that time, which we’re now talking kind of the late 1700s, mid 1800s, everybody understood that that made sense. At that time, in the mid 1800s, there was an American called Wilbur Atwater, who was studying this phenomenon in Germany. All the great research was on this was going on in Europe at the time. And we remember, the the Industrial Revolution really sort of started in the UK, with the textile industries and steam engines. And he said, Well, you know, there’s still a lot of work that’s being done by animals and people. So if these, they are essentially kind of like a steam engine, are there foods that have lots of calories, that we can feed them so they can do more, more work? So you know, if I can feed them a pound of potatoes, maybe that’s better than, you know, a pound of beans or something like that, in terms of like the calorie and the energy it’ll give them. And again, that concept of feeding people or animals more calories to get more work out of them. That makes sense to everybody at the time said it’s a logical kind of conversation. And so at water went about figuring this out. And the way one does that is to use something called a bomb calorimeter which is kind of exactly what it sounds like. So I take that potato, and I weigh out how much it is, and then I learned the Hell, I incinerated. So there was literally literally nothing left but ash and then I measure how much in terms of temperature, the water went up how much heat was giving off given off. And that’s its caloric value. Now, and I know that a lot of this was filmed down under, unless you are sore on the grade from Lord of the Rings, no one no human being processes food like that. So in terms of its applicability, to how humans metabolize and use food, you can see it has really no relevance. And not only that, but as most things in the story of humanity, we got lazy. So instead of testing, every food, we just said, you know, most fats are about mine kcal per gram, most carbs are about four. So we’ll just kind of put them together, and we’ll just look at, you know, how many grams of carbs and proteins and fats etc. And then we can kind of guesstimate, you know, how much is in an apple, you know, etc. And so that’s where the concept of calorie as and how it relates to food comes from. And once you understand that, and once you, you know, talk about the things that we’ve talked about in terms of the gut microbiome and ourselves, we could see that in terms of understanding that kind of nutrition, that makes no sense. And when we talk about restricting calories, or adding calories, obviously, the quality of that of where that calorie comes from, is what’s really important. So a, you know, 50 calories from a candy bar is not the same as 50 calories from an apple.
That’s, that’s common sense. And yet, when we talk about health strictly in terms of calories, inadvertently, between the lines that would that’s what we’re saying. And when we look then at dietary approaches that really want to drop your calories I, you know, for example, which is another discussion, because this turns out to be really bad for your gut microbiome, and give you diabetes and obesity. But when we look at zero calorie sweeteners, and we say, hey, instead of having a sugar sweetened beverage, just drink the zero calorie artificially sweetened beverage, because it’s healthier, right? It’s zero calories, it’s not going to affect you, in that sense. And that turns out, you know, to be a big lie, and if we were to follow that logic, really everything that was artificial, that had was made and had minimal calories, that would be the best diet for us. And yet, what you and I just talked about, is how that adulteration that processing is actually the opposite. And the story and actually, I remember this because some of the earliest papers, and this goes way back to when I was a cardiology fellow, so decades ago, but some of the first papers about this, I remember actually came out from Australia, where they looked at at this at that time, they were looking at women who drank zero calorie artificially sweetened beverages, women who didn’t drink any kind of sweetened beverage, and women who drank sugar sweetened beverages. And you’d expect based on the the rationale for a calorie, that someone who drank the zero calorie artificially sweetened beverages should be just like somebody who didn’t drink, you know, sweetened beverages at all. And that’s not true. They had incredibly high rates of obesity, that that approach those of drinking sugar, the same with a diabetes. And when they had heart attacks, their complication rate was similar in some some studies worse than women who drink sugar sweetened beverages. And that really didn’t even make sense. And I remember because as a cardiology fellow, I presented that paper at our at our journal club. And so I had to weigh you know, many decades, I’m not going to say how many, but many, until this result was actually published, only about, I’d say, about three or four years ago, in nature magazine, where they recreated the human gut microbiome in a mouse, and they fed them those same artificial sweeteners. And what they found out is that it affected the gut microbiome, and made this pro inflammatory environment exists in our gut, and that inflammation is what’s associated with diabetes, and then they got they got to be so then they got diabetes, etc. So it’s set that whole chain, you know, that was the gasoline that set that whole chain on fire. So yeah, zero calorie. Artificial sweeteners don’t impact human cells, but they destroy your gut bacteria. And we have to again, shift our perspective from thinking of us as something in isolation, to understanding ourselves in our bodies and ecosystem. And so you know, if you take your insides and make it more like Fukushima, then the great Outback, you’re going to have the correlative results.
Mat Lock
Yeah, sure enough, it’s fascinating. Thank you, Adam interest? And I know, it’s probably a big question, but what is it about those artificial sweeteners, for example, that destroys the gut microbiome? What’s actually?
Chef Dr. Mike
So we don’t know exactly, because what we see is that there’s a shift. And so, you know, we’re an ecosystem. So like in any ecosystem, you know, if you polluted, certain things die out, and certain things that thrive in that type of environment will then manifest. So it’s never totally, you know, a wasteland, that kind of old saying, nature abhors a vacuum, something will come to dwell on there. And it’s kind of a How do you want to turn that garden? You know, what are you using, you know, for your inner garden? And so that’s an active area of active investigation, because it turns out, and I speak, you know, about the gut microbiome, and I want to kind of put a footnote on that, because yes, we know, and we’ve learned a lot about the bacteria. But a gut microbiome will also encompass, you know, there’s a lot of viruses in there that we know nothing about what they’re doing. Other one celled organisms, yeast, fungi, that exists commensurately with us. So when we’re talking about bacteria, we’re just kind of getting the understanding that that tip of that iceberg. And then it’s not only the the composition of the bacteria, but we also then have to look at that the metabolites, because different strains of bacteria produce different products. And those different products, it turns out, actually can control our moods. They tell us to stop eating, they can tell us when we’re hungry, they can turn our genes on and off to manufacture things like butyric acid, which may be protective against colon cancer. So it’s it’s a fascinating area of study, that hopefully over the next decade, we’re learning a lot more. Great question. And that’s a long, very politically adept way of saying I have no idea.
Mat Lock
Sure thing. So I mean, I guess if we try and so what’s the starting point for the lay person, I mean, for sure, eating a whole food diet as close to the ground as possible, trying to ideally eliminate or at least reduce the amount of processed food that’s been consumed. But when it comes to gut microbiome, what’s the starting point there for the layperson, and you know, lots of our audiences are really interested in their health, they really are interesting, a lot of them are doing a great job already, not all. But some are doing a great job already, with the information that’s available. And whilst being bombarded is like having a firehose turned on to your forehead, frankly, getting bombarded with information. And I guess we’re all here, depending on what our social media feed presents to us as well, in terms of supporting our own beliefs, and the like, and how we’ve been, you know, what we’ve learned as we’ve grown up, but when it comes to gut microbiome, what would be a really sensible starting point for anyone who’s interested to dig a bit deeper with their own self interest, and maybe that of their family and friends?
Chef Dr. Mike
So I think maybe three simple steps to start. And the first is, whenever you are choosing an ingredient, or going to order a food, whether it be at a restaurant, or you’re getting at the supermarket, or having it delivered by the internet, ask yourself three questions. How was it bred? So was this harvested wild from the ocean? Was it farmed? And, you know, what are the details of you know, what was farmed? What was it fed? So is this something that was raised organically? Is this something that was raised conventionally, lots of fertilizers, lots of pesticides, potentially? And then finally, you know, where was it led, so once it was harvested, you know, what kind of processing went went on? There’s a heck of a lot of a difference between a wild you know, harvested salmon filet, and a fry, square chunk of breaded fish, you know, fillet that you get through the drive thru. And yet, when we look at dietary questionnaires, they’re asking you if you ate fish this week, and that’s one of the reasons you asked why things fail, you know, garbage in garbage out if we don’t acquire our data with an eye towards the important information we’re finding. So that’s, that’s one thing. The second thing in terms of the gut microbiome specifically, is what we’re saying is naturally fermented foods are great sources of probiotics and prebiotics, because are fermented foods. There are some fermented meats, there’s pickled beet vegetable from India. Salamis are naturally fermented, you know, sausages, like Italy and and the Mediterranean, but by and far away the largest group fermented products are fermented plant products, kimchi, sauerkraut, you know those types of things. And when we eat those, we’re eating bacteria that are good for us. And we know that. And then we’re also eating things called prebiotics, which is, you know, Matt, I’m an old guy. So I can remember on the back of, you know, Reader’s Digest, and comic they’d have, you can order you know, assess the monkeys. And you know, you put these things in water, and you’d have, they were little brine shrimp, and he’d swim around and do stuff, and you would see monkeys, but then you had to order see monkey food, because you got to feed your sea monkeys. And so when we eat these little wee beasties and probiotics, and people pay a lot for these pills, you got to feed them. And so what we see is that the probiotics or the food for the gut microbiome, that correlates to the health of the microbiome, are really what we get, again, in fermented foods, and then what’s called non digestible oligosaccharides. And those are things that are primarily found in plant products. Interestingly, it’s all they are also produced the human breast milk. And it is the third, you know, sort of by volume, if you will, the third most abundant constituent and human breast milk. And what’s interesting is that the infant, just like us, we can’t digest those oligos tech, right, so called HMOs, human milk oligosaccharides. So all they actually do in the newborn, is select out for a split a particular strain of bacteria, called Buffy to Baxter, bacterium infinitas, which then once that grows, and the newborns, a colon in the newborns, gut, turns on certain immune system genes, and start cycling and light up the baby’s immune system. And so that gives you an idea, you know, how complex it blows my mind that nature wired, human mothers to produce something that babies can’t digest, but allows them to serve as the petri dish to grow this one strain of bacteria, that then will turn on their immune system genes. And if we just take a moment and let that sit in sink in, that gives you an idea of, of why, you know, a culinary medicine, I often harp on the term, we’re not people, we’re ecosystems, we are not in any way, shape, or form, designed to function independently of this good planet. And I think, you know, the sooner we recognize that, and, and reestablish that perspective in our relationship with food, the better off we’re going to be in terms of both mental health and physical health.
Mat Lock
Absolutely. Like you, I find it mind blowing, and unconscious, we’re scratching the surface, and I appreciate that you’re making it understandable. For the layperson, I probably get myself when I say that. I’m saying one of the one of the final topics for today’s chat, at least, I hadn’t planned to talk about this, but it’s relevant, because there are more and more companies offering all sorts of DNA profiling these days that purport to then give you real data about us, specifically you, and any even down to food types that you may that may serve you better than others, for example. What are your thoughts around those? I’m sorry, to put you on the spot, because we did. But um, yeah, if you’re happy to share, I mean, what what are your thoughts around those? I mean, without going into a brand specific, generally worthwhile, or is it too early for them to be truly valuable? And also putting all sorts of privacy concerns that some people have aside from? If I send a sample into one of these companies, and I get my report back? Is that can that be valuable data?
Chef Dr. Mike
And that’s a great question. That’s actually one of the things we teach in our introduction code, of course, is they introduce people to that it’s called nutrigenomics. And, and it’s one of the sort of omix of study and, and it is useful to a degree. So if you send it to like ancestry.com, or anything, you’re not, you’ll get some information, but you’re not going to get that kind of detailed information. And so in nutrigenomics, they’re looking at your specific genetic profile, because we’re all slightly different. And we have sort of one point mutations that are called single nucleotide polymorphisms, or snips, and they’re just the things that you know, sort of make us us and they can make us more responsive to certain food types, less responsive to others, etc. And so unfortunately, right now, getting those types of profiles is a little bit expensive. And then you need to have someone in terms of dietary and nutrition background, who is competent to interpret that for you and say, Okay, it looks like this diet is good for you, but I’ll give you a A good example. And this is not my area of expertise, although I’m familiar with it. So I actually have guest lecturer in this topic for a course. And she’s one of the world’s experts. And she gave an example that just kind of blew my mind. So, in general, everybody would agree, the more plants you eat, the healthier you are. And I think that that’s, you know, pretty, pretty standard fare, unless you have a certain step or certain gene mutation. And if you had that, and you said, You know what, I’m not eating anything from animals anymore, I’m going to go on a vegan diet. Well, there’s a certain mutation that some people have, that prevents them from taking the carotene that comes from plants and converting it to vitamin A, we can also get vitamin A as the Eskimos do from eating certain types of animal products as well. So if somebody has that example, that type of snip or that mutation, if they were then to go on a vegan diet, thinking they were going to be healthy, they would actually end up suffering from vitamin A deficiency, even though they could eat carrots till they were blue in the face. So when you have somebody to to look at those, which and that’s not a terribly common mutation, I want to add, so don’t everybody panic. But but it does kind of give you a good example, and kind of highlight the individuality and the need to have a specialist go through those foods, and develop a food plan for you. Now, having said all that, it kind of goes back to the topic we’ve covered before, because that doesn’t address at all the bacteria. And there is it appears that our gut microbiomes, as human beings are like our fingerprints, even two kids grow up in the same house eating exactly the same meals, may have at most about 10 15% of commonality in the overlap of the composition of their gut microbiome, gut microbiome are very individual. And they’re dependent on our environment, and who we are, and our genetics, and all these other things. And as we’ve just talked about, you know, extensively, that has a huge impact in our health as well. So when we take all those things together, that is called betta below mix, which is kind of the study of all these things. And we were not quite there yet. So I think if somebody you know, is a very serious athlete very, or has some, you know, real nutritional or dietary issues, that going down that path can be very, very beneficial. If you get qualified people to help you don’t just order the test and try to figure out yourself, don’t just buy some stuff that they sell you based on their recommendations, you need an independent person to interpret that. It can be valuable, I think, for the average person, you know, certainly for me, looking at the data at this point, I don’t I don’t think it would be necessarily useful for me.
Mat Lock
Sure, yeah.
Chef Dr. Mike
Maybe in the future. And it may be a whole a whole arm of medical therapeutics in the future. But we’re just just not there yet.
Mat Lock
Yeah, sure, which I think was the underlying question. I’m, it’s Yeah, I mean, my hope is that this is the future, a part of the future because it could be hugely valuable. But yes, the marketing would suggest we’re there now. And it always does, doesn’t it? Yeah. As long as you have the money, we got the product. That’s exactly right. Exactly. Right. I’m Dr. Mike, I am conscious of time, and eternally grateful for how generous you’ve been with your pleasure. Um, we talked about the introduction to culinary medicine program that’s available online. Where would someone go to find out more about that, if that was of interest to them?
Chef Dr. Mike
If they go to WWW dot chef, Dr. mike.com. That’s chef, Dr. mike.com. That’s kind of a central place, they can follow me on social media. From there, we’re on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, they can read more about me, they can look at our online course, it explains it in detail. You can actually download the syllabus and see exactly what you’re getting yourself into, which hopefully is a lot of enjoyment. And they can actually there’s a link to the university where they can sign up for the course if they if they’d like to
Mat Lock
show a lovely, thank you. And I’ll certainly put all of the those details in the show notes, add of interest, how long for the what’s the average duration, it’s taking for people to work their way successfully through the program.
Chef Dr. Mike
You know, working a little bit each day, I would give myself about three months. So it’s it’s introduction, but it’s not one of these, you know, pay it, you give me a lot of money and I get to give you a certificate at the end of the weekend. We really go through a lot of data. Again, my goal here is to empower people with knowledge. So you know, you’ll definitely get your money’s worth, that’s for sure. You there’s 18 different topics divided into three segments. Looking at Kind of what we talked about is what is coronary medicine? then looking at some of the other things we didn’t touch on too much today, but are very important, which is or what are the non ingredient influences in our dietary choices. And then finally walking through each kind of ingredient category vegetables, you know, fish, herbs and spices, things like that. And some quizzes and things along the way. So, you know, give yourself time and, you know, it’s about enjoying it as you go through and it’s entirely at your own pace.
Mat Lock
Absolutely. No, thank you. And as you’ve quite rightly said, we’ve, for sure have a second sitting in this in the future. much to talk about, but for today and for now. Thank you very much for your time and for sharing your knowledge with us. And until next time. Yes, a pleasure, man. Thanks, mate. pleasure as always, cheers. Well, there you have it. Thanks very much for listening. And if you’ve enjoyed this, please go ahead, hit the subscribe button down below and the little bell icon so you get notified every time we upload a new episode. And if you think that one of your training buddies would also enjoy this, go ahead and share it with them right now. With that said, Thank you once again and as always be brave, have fun and lead by example.
